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HAWK21M
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 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| sumantra wrote: | All the 788s are in BOM right now: maintenance for `stored' planes, or a Boeing visit at AI's heavy engineering base? BOM spotters: no pictures yet? 
Cheers, Sumantra. |
They'll probably be parked at the Maintenance hangar, as with current work in progress the Bay situation at MIAL is tough.
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sumantra
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | | They'll probably be parked at the Maintenance hangar, as with current work in progress the Bay situation at MIAL is tough. |
Precisely what I thought, given what I've seen of BOM airside in Jan (tight parking situation!). But Meljoe - my question is, why are they all in BOM right now?
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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sukritmunjal
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Jeh
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Posts: 669
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Have the media $£%&ing lost it?! Even the Wall Street Journal has picked up on this ghastly story now as have several lesser media outlets. One obscure source puts out some dubious story and the rest of them swallow it wholesale like lemmings, without any discernment, enquiry or scepticism.
They'll be shitting themselves if they hear of MMEL flights! Perhaps the concerned officials at Airbus and Emirates should be booked for attempted murder for flying that severely damaged A340-500 unpressurised from Melbourne to Toulouse after EK407 in 2009.
Unlettered gits, the lot of them. |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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That is not sensationalist, it is the truth.
Air India wilfully endangered the lives of hundreds of people. For that alone, they should lose their license and the employees responsible for this must be charged with criminal offences and prosecuted accordingly.
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeh wrote: | Have the media $£%&ing lost it?! Even the Wall Street Journal has picked up on this ghastly story now as have several lesser media outlets. One obscure source puts out some dubious story and the rest of them swallow it wholesale like lemmings, without any discernment, enquiry or scepticism.
...
Unlettered gits, the lot of them. |
This gentleman's tweets in this context were rather amusing today - https://twitter.com/captranganathan
| captranganathan wrote: | The clueless DG says " so the jets could be maintained at its Mumbai " what if a/c caught fire while landing
The Federal Aviation Administration has prohibited commercial, test and delivery flights of U.S.-registered 787s. Indian DGCA permits AI !!?
Looks like, neither DGCA nor Air India have learnt anything from the fatal crash at Mangalore. Commercial interest of operator is priority
"They were also motivated by an effort to avoid high aircraft parking charges in Delhi". AI pilots who flew 787s, clueless on Safety ?
Does the DGCA think there is danger only when passengers are on board?FAA has not even acceded to Boeing's request for test flights. Amazing
The Federal Aviation Administration has prohibited commercial, TEST and DELIVERY flights of U.S.-registered 787s. Is the DGCA aware?
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jasepl
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hahha! They are certainly amusing, but not entirely off the mark.
Whilst the DGCA are, as usual, poking their incredibly long nose in places it doesn't belong, we have the National Disgrace jeopardising the lives of hundreds of people.
And no, not even a "Naughty Beggar, don't do it again" reprimand from the DGCA, let alone serious criminal prosecution against the bloodsucking wretch. Instead, a "do what you want ,because we're too busy pontificating about fares and baggage policies".
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Jeh
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | That is not sensationalist, it is the truth. |
It's not the truth, it's sensationalist.
| jasepl wrote: | Hahha! They are certainly amusing, but not entirely off the mark.
Whilst the DGCA are, as usual, poking their incredibly long nose in places it doesn't belong, we have the National Disgrace jeopardising the lives of hundreds of people. |
Perhaps you should stop watching Chicken Little. This information was from a thread about QR's LHR-stuck 787 on Airliners.net:
Another factor is that any ferry permit would require agreement from the authorities in each country the aircraft would fly over, because of the "before further flight" AD. Air India, ANA and JAL would only have to ask their home regulator; JAL and UA could repatriate their aircraft without flying over third countries. QR and LOT would have problems with this though.
AI asked their home regulator, got permission and flew it, presumably with great care given none of the pilots or engineers on the ferry flight were particularly interested in ending up as a fireball over Jaipur. By your sky-is-falling logic any MMEL flight is tantamount to criminal negligence.
The DGCA's arbitrary diversification into policy-making is a non sequitur in this argument. |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | we have the National Disgrace jeopardising the lives of hundreds of people |
Ferrying an empty a/c (that was used for commercial flights until the previous day) is hardly a major risk in this case. Based on what we know so far, the biggest risk was that of smoke in the cabin based on a battery going crazy and the containment system leaking some fumes. No one should use the plane for commercial ops until the battery stuff is cleared up, but taking it back to it's MX base is quite logical and does not jeopardize anyone IMO.
Ultimately it was the same FAA that approved the a/c and the same FAA that did not ban it until the Japanese grounded the a/c first. The delayed banning from the FAA seemed like a massive case of CYA to me.
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jasepl
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | jasepl wrote: | | we have the National Disgrace jeopardising the lives of hundreds of people |
Ferrying an empty a/c (that was used for commercial flights until the previous day) is hardly a major risk in this case. Based on what we know so far, the biggest risk was that of smoke in the cabin based on a battery going crazy and the containment system leaking some fumes. No one should use the plane for commercial ops until the battery stuff is cleared up, but taking it back to it's MX base is quite logical and does not jeopardize anyone IMO.
Ultimately it was the same FAA that approved the a/c and the same FAA that did not ban it until the Japanese grounded the a/c first. The delayed banning from the FAA seemed like a massive case of CYA to me. |
Please don't bring logic or sense into an AI-related discussion. They don't even know the meaning of the term!
Besides, the lives of hundreds of people were jeopardised. The flight path between Delhi and Bombay has millions op people living right under it.
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Last edited by jasepl on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | jasepl wrote: | | we have the National Disgrace jeopardising the lives of hundreds of people |
Ferrying an empty a/c (that was used for commercial flights until the previous day) is hardly a major risk in this case. Based on what we know so far, the biggest risk was that of smoke in the cabin based on a battery going crazy and the containment system leaking some fumes. No one should use the plane for commercial ops until the battery stuff is cleared up, but taking it back to it's MX base is quite logical and does not jeopardize anyone IMO.
Ultimately it was the same FAA that approved the a/c and the same FAA that did not ban it until the Japanese grounded the a/c first. The delayed banning from the FAA seemed like a massive case of CYA to me. |
The FAA approved the 787 in part because of clearances the Japanese govt. gave the battery manufacturers. This is a case of Boeing allowing the McDonnell Douglas bean counters to take over the 787 program, then outsourcing like crazy to appease said bean counters, cozying up to the FAA and other country's aviation regulatory entities. |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | Please don't bring logic or sense into an AI-related discussion. They don't even know the meaning of the term!
The flight path between Delhi and Bombay has millions op people living right under it. |
Violently agree  !
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Ferry flights permitted by regulatory is not uncommon.The staff operating these flights are aware of the risks involved and special checklists are followed by flt ops and Maintenance prior to departing such flights.
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Jeh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | | Ferry flights permitted by regulatory is not uncommon.The staff operating these flights are aware of the risks involved and special checklists are followed by flt ops and Maintenance prior to departing such flights. |
Why bother adding clarity and common sense to the discussion when some members have already agreed on an exaggerated and diabolical conclusion? |
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aeroblogger
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: |
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DGCA's grounding order from day 1 has been a ban on all revenue operations. AI is free to take the 787 on a country wide tour if they'd like.
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stealthpilot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | Ferrying an empty a/c (that was used for commercial flights until the previous day) is hardly a major risk in this case. Based on what we know so far, the biggest risk was that of smoke in the cabin based on a battery going crazy and the containment system leaking some fumes. No one should use the plane for commercial ops until the battery stuff is cleared up, but taking it back to it's MX base is quite logical and does not jeopardize anyone IMO. |
I disagree, just because it didn't have passengers doesn't mean its not a major risk. Ferrying an aircraft which has been grounded worldwide is a risk. Battery going crazy and leaking fumes= more like a battery charge leading to fire for which they have no cause. The fact that it flew normally 6 hours before doesn't mean anything.
| Jeh wrote: | | AI asked their home regulator, got permission and flew it, presumably with great care given none of the pilots or engineers on the ferry flight were particularly interested in ending up as a fireball over Jaipur. By your sky-is-falling logic any MMEL flight is tantamount to criminal negligence. |
Nobody wants to die .... yet accidents happen. Of course great care was taken, but what care? Boeing + FAA + nobody knows what's causing this problem so what is this 'great care' preventative measure AI took which nobody else knows about?
AI might be legally allowed to ferry the aircraft, but it was silly IMO. To save $$ ?
This was a worldwide aircraft type grounding, not an MEL flight or special permission ferry or what have you, this was a worldwide aircraft grounding. Unprecedented. Cant compare it to a maintenance flight.
When was the last time this happened .... DC10 two decades ago maybe? Every single 787 on the planet is on the ground because no one knows why the battery is trying to catch fire. AI may legally be allowed to fly it but its not smart, not until they figure out why its trying to spontaneously combust.
| aeroblogger wrote: | | DGCA's grounding order from day 1 has been a ban on all revenue operations. AI is free to take the 787 on a country wide tour if they'd like. |
True, but its stupid.
The article should have made it clear that it was legal + no passengers + etc etc to keep it somewhat balanced.
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747-237
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| 747-237 wrote: | | Folks, may I once again request that we stick to the debut of the Air India 787s in this thread. Thanks. |
Air India's latest SC built 787, VT-ANO, has been rolled out to join VT-ANM and 2 Hainan Airlines (unpainted) 787s on the CHS flightline.
There are two Air India 787s at Charleston, as of today.
VT-ANM Painted
VT-ANO Unpainted
Pic source: "from a source" |
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747-237
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| 747-237 wrote: | | Air India newest 787 (WA Built), VT-ANN, has broken cover on the KPAE flightline today. |
VT-ANN looks delivery ready, and has been moved to the storage area at KPAE.
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Jeh
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Preposterous grammar, but a mildly interesting article nonetheless.
Air India to be compensated by Boeing for Dreamliner battery trouble
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/air-india-to-be-compensated-by-boeing-for-dreamliner-battery-trouble/articleshow/18591289.cms
Air India would get compensated by Boeing for the battery trouble plaguing its latest Dreamliner planes, all of which have been grounded, but discussions on the issue would take place later.
"There will be some compensation. ...Let us wait a while. We will discuss with Boeing only when the things settle down," Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh told reporters here.
He ruled out a time-frame for the discussion on compensation saying, "there can't be a last date. Safety is important. (After the problems are fixed) the FAA ( US Federal Aviation Administration) has to certify the planes. The DGCA has also to certify them."
Air India CMD Rohit Nandan also said, "We have an understanding that we will be compensated."
"We are already operating the Boeing 777s on these routes (earlier by operated by Boeing 787 Dreamliners). Whatever be the differences between the operating costs, we may get it," Nandan said while refusing to put in any figures.
All the 50 Dreamliners delivered by Boeing to airlines across the world, including six of Air India, have been grounded following two incidents of fire and smoke in the lithium ion batteries.
Asked about Air India's financial performance and cash flow, Nandan said it has improved considerably.
"Despite the grounding of the Dreamliners since January and a two-month strike by pilots last year, we expect to be EDIBTA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization) positive this financial year.
"... It will be better than what has been projected in the Turnaround Plan and we hope to declare net profit before 2018," he said. If Air India's financial results are positive, it would be for the first time in the past five years, Nandan said.
Between April 2012 and this January, Air India's revenue from passengers increased 8.3 per cent, load factor (number of occupied seats on an aircraft) increased to 71.8 per cent from 68.5 per cent, yield (revenue per passenger per km) was up 19.2 per cent and the number of passengers carried was higher by 3.4 per cent, the AI chief said.
On AI's plans to sell off five Boeing 777-200s, he said, "We have an offer for all the five planes". |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeh wrote: | | Air India to be compensated by Boeing for Dreamliner battery trouble |
Bheekh by other means.
At least it's not the taxpayer being asked to cough up (until next week, that is). Thank God for small mercies.
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Jeh
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | Bheekh by other means.
At least it's not the taxpayer being asked to cough up (until next week, that is). Thank God for small mercies. |
No, compensation. Whether AI deserve taxpayer funding or not is a different issue, and irrelevant to the present problem of who bears the opportunity cost of the grounding. Contract law isn't based on how well-managed the parties are, or what your opinion of one of the parties is, though they may make an exception should you wish to trot in as amicus curiae and bore the court to tears with your moral objections to AI's existence. |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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There's an opportunity cost?
The 787s being grounded means the 330, 777s and 747s are deployed instead. If they weren't deployed, they'd be sitting around (fortunately unable to get fat like the crew who hoover up the passengers' meals).
The taxpayers are paying for everything anyway, for every second of Air India's pointless, disgraceful, (ought to be) criminal existence and for all the thieving excesses of AI management and staff and bureaucrats and crew and cleaners. As well as their extended families and neighbours and friends and dentists and manicurists.
And really? Aid India with a sense of entitlement? Wo would have thought?
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | Jeh wrote: | | Air India to be compensated by Boeing for Dreamliner battery trouble |
Bheekh by other means.
At least it's not the taxpayer being asked to cough up (until next week, that is). Thank God for small mercies. |
While AI may be that ungrateful bheekhari, this compensation is just and called for. Boeing are compensating all the airlines who've had to put their 787 fleets in dry dock. |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: | | While AI may be that ungrateful bheekhari, this compensation is just and called for. Boeing are compensating all the airlines who've had to put their 787 fleets in dry dock. |
Oh yes, I agree. And I thanked the lord for the small mercy that this might mean a small, albeit temporary, dip in the bheekh we are forced to give Air India on a daily basis.
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stealthpilot
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Heres a link to an interim report.
http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45c377c5&opt=0
| Quote: | | On Mar 7th 2013 the NTSB released an interim report (hosted on AVH due to server load at the docket server of the NTSB, the AVH managed to finally download the file after 7 hours) reporting the APU of JA829J (169 flight hours/22 flight cycles since new) had been started at 15:04Z while the aircraft was taxiing to the gate. The aircraft reached the gate at 15:06Z, the passengers disembarked by 15:15Z and the crew left at 15:20Z. Cleaning personal entered the cabin. According to the flight data recorder the voltage of the APU battery, a Lithium Cobalt based battery rated at 75Ah/29.6V capable of delivering up to 1000A and typically 450A over 45 seconds for up to three APU start attempts, began to fluctuate at 15:21:01Z, failed at 15:21:15Z with the voltage dropping and reached 28V at 15:21:30Z. At 15:21:37Z the APU automatically shut down, the battery voltage reached 0V. A mechanic in the aft cabin noticed the power had been lost and went to the cockpit, recognized the APU had automatically shut down and went back to the aft cabin but smelled and saw smoke and notified the maintenance manger, who in turn asked the mechanic to check the aft electronic bay. The mechanic found heavy smoke and observed two distinct flames of about 3 inches at the APU battery. The mechanic attempted to extinguish the fire using a dry chemical fire extinguisher but flames and smoke did not stop. At 15:37Z emergency services were alerted, the first vehicle arrived less than a minute later. Multiple attempts by emergency services to extinguish the fire were unsuccessful, the battery appeared to rekindle. A pop sound was heard followed by hissing sounds, a firefighter received a minor burn at the neck when the battery popped. It was decided to remove the battery, about 80 minutes after the begin of the event the battery was moved out of the aircraft, 100 minutes after the begin of the event the situation was pronounced under control. The battery had weighed 61.8lbs/28kg when it was installed and weighed 56 lbs/25kg when it was removed from the aircraft mainly due to the loss of electrolyte. Examination of the cells and battery revealed a number of protusions on cell 5, which were determined to the result of arcing between between the cell 5 case and battery case, the protusions were outward and the cell case had expanded outward, the arcing was the result of the cell expansion leading to the breach of the battery case. Tests of the battery monitoring unit were not possible due to the damage received during the fire, the battery control unit passed all tests (except that it inhibited charging already above the permitted minimum temperature of 5 degrees F). Boeing had assessed the risk of a battery cell venting at one in 10 million flight hours and the risk of the battery spilling flammable fluid at one in 1 billion flight hours, however, only 52,000 flight hours had been accumulated in operation of the B787 so far and two batteries had vented/spilled. The only scenario, that Boeing had identified, that could lead to the battery venting with fire was overcharge, the design requirements made it highly improbable that an overcharge could occur. The investigation is continuing. |
28 kg battery. Took a while to get the burning thing out of the aircraft. Boeing has no idea why they are trying to spontaneously combust.
And AI flew them to BOM with precautions to save parking fees 
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Disapointing to watch all the B787s lined up at BOM, gathering dust.
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abhijith16
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:07 am Post subject: |
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Hurrah!
FAA has approved the new battery fix! And most importantly, FAA has kept the approval of 3hr ETOPS for the 787!!
Good news for AI, QR, ET, LO, NH, JL, LA and UA!
I wanna see these beauties fly again!!
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747-237
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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One might be fooled into believing that there are now 5 Air India 787s on the CHS flightline, but there are still only 2 (VT-ANM Painted; VT-ANO Unpainted) that are Air India.
Three other red tails are Hainan; the blue one is China Southern.
Pic: airlinersgallery.wordpress.com |
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | | Disapointing to watch all the B787s lined up at BOM, gathering dust. |
Now that they're gonna be back up in the air, the 777s will take their place. |
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: | | HAWK21M wrote: | | Disapointing to watch all the B787s lined up at BOM, gathering dust. |
Now that they're gonna be back up in the air, the 777s will take their place. |
Before half a dozen of the 787 fleet find themselves on the ground too, awaiting leases to other carriers, or sales altogether.
We've seen the script before, over and over again in the past half a decade.
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stealthpilot
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: |
Before half a dozen of the 787 fleet find themselves on the ground too, awaiting leases to other carriers, or sales altogether.
We've seen the script before, over and over again in the past half a decade. |
Exactly
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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A Economical fix to the B787 is a long way off.........Time will tell.
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747-237
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Air India is scheduled to take delivery of their 7th 787 at CHS tomorrow ( 05/28 ). Arrival at DEL on 05/29.
As always, plans are subject to change. |
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sumantra
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| 747-237 wrote: | | As always, plans are subject to change. |
plans, or planes . The former, I guess. Which one will this be?
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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sumantra
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ah sorry, it is going to be `NM', the `distance' plane (Nautical Mile), VT-ANM.
Thanks to Delhi Spotters for the news.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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747-237
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| 747-237 wrote: | Air India is scheduled to take delivery of their 7th 787 at CHS tomorrow ( 05/28 ). Arrival at DEL on 05/29.
As always, plans are subject to change. |
The event did not go as per schedule - perhaps tomorrow. |
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aeroblogger
Member
Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 788
Location: PVD, HYD, IXE
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Time to gear up for another delay-fest related to AI's 787s. The DGCA has taken it upon itself to investigate whether the FAA correctly recertified the 787
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747-237
Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 11360
Location: Gordon Gekko's Boardroom
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| VT-ANO has been ferried to Ft. Worth, TX today to be painted in AI colors. |
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747-237
Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 11360
Location: Gordon Gekko's Boardroom
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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VT-ANA, VT-ANB, VT-ANC, & VT-ANE at the Everett Modification Center yesterday (06/16).
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sumantra
Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 4685
Location: New Delhi
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| 747-237 wrote: | | VT-ANA, VT-ANB, VT-ANC, & VT-ANE at the Everett Modification Center yesterday (06/16). |
Deb, there are 5 of these (if not 6 - near the JAL tail in a weird orientation): which is the fifth one, and is it also there for a similar purpose? |
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