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ameya
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Location: Pune,Maharashtra
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 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | ameya wrote: | STV is doing bad on the STV-BOM-STV legs, hardly any traffic.
So they tried feeding it southwards with flights to TRV/IXE and so on, which also dint help, so they went for their own profitable routing to ATQ/IXC
Currently they are stuck with STV
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Is SG using the 737 on STV-BOM or is it the Q400? |
B738 - DEL STV BOM (ATQ/IXC) - SXR and v.v since WS-12 |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: | | B738 - DEL STV BOM (ATQ/IXC) - SXR and v.v since WS-12 |
Hmm. - given how well STV is connected by train on the BOM-DEL mainline - I wonder why SG wanted to plonk a 737 on the exact same route? Wouldn't a Q400 have made more sense - and perhaps connecting to a city with limited rail links to Surat (essentially anything like HYD/ MAA/ BLR etc.), but enough traffic?
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ameya
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | ameya wrote: | | B738 - DEL STV BOM (ATQ/IXC) - SXR and v.v since WS-12 |
Hmm. - given how well STV is connected by train on the BOM-DEL mainline - I wonder why SG wanted to plonk a 737 on the exact same route? Wouldn't a Q400 have made more sense - and perhaps connecting to a city with limited rail links to Surat (essentially anything like HYD/ MAA/ BLR etc.), but enough traffic? |
At some point of time in the last few years, I was involved in studying potential of STV. Let me try and throw some light on this.
The industry potentital and population is not a true indicator of air services requirement for any place.
STV-BOM-STV : Average daily one way traffic was estimated to be 1500pax each way. Of this the majority was covered by some train ( Flying Rani ? ) and this traffic was worker traffic
STV-DEL-STV was estimated to be 150pax each way (looks like an underestimated value) and that does not justify a plane service
STV-BLR/HYD/PNQ/MAA/CCU are much lower in terms of pax each way
The problem which is faced by AMD/BDQ is also faced in STV - that of lower yeilds.
On the other hand, Bhuj, Kandla give higher RPKM primarily due to its location |
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TKMCE
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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In addition the business traffic on STV BOM would prefer the train for a different reason as well
Most of them are headed for the Diamond trading market and the current location does not make it attractive for them to drive down from the airport. May be the planned shift to BKC may help the traffic flows slightly.
Same for connection traffic. Driving down to take a connectiing flight is more convenient since the WE highway passess the BOM airport. |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| TKMCE wrote: | In addition the business traffic on STV BOM would prefer the train for a different reason as well
Most of them are headed for the Diamond trading market and the current location does not make it attractive for them to drive down from the airport. May be the planned shift to BKC may help the traffic flows slightly.
Same for connection traffic. Driving down to take a connectiing flight is more convenient since the WE highway passess the BOM airport. |
Exactly. I'll be surprised if there's only 1500 people travelling between Bombay and Surat every day; I'd hunch the number to be 10 times as much. However, the location of the airport does not help. One may as well take the train or go by road.
Similarly, the flight timings don't help with flight connections. Between London, Brussels, New York and Tel Aviv a daily flight can easily be supported. But with the current schedules if that means faffing around for many hours, then one may as well go by road.
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Karan69
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: |
>2.5hrs Qs cant go and you cant deploy the B737s, because the routes are thin, so Ejets are better than Qs |
What routes do you see SG utilise an E Jet on?
And how many Aircrafts would you have them take?
The only one i know they can immediately deploy it on is DEL-STV-BOM-ATQ/IXC-SXR vv
Any other?
********************
Looks like SG have converted one of their 739ERs on order to -800, they seem to be struggling filling that aircraft.
Also last saturday my flights on SG loads were as follows
SG 2323 ATQ-DEL -- 41 pax
SG 103 DEL-BOM-COK 104 pax
Both flights a recorded welcome announcement was made in the local language --Punjabi for ATQ and Marathi for BOM, which was nice
Q400 as i mentioned has an uncomfortable window seat due to a floor beam meant to conceal wires, aisle seat is perfectly fine
737-800 the pilots were perhaps the worst set i have ever experienced, flew the aircraft very rashly
They taxied out from DEL apron on to RW 27 and then taxied back via the parking bay holding short of RW 28,
While landing in BOM, they made extremely rapid descends and hard right and left banks to allign themselves with RW 27.
Pathetic
Karan |
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ameya
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Its more to do with your planning capability with Ejets than with Qs rather than converting existing routes.
They have recently closed NAG/NDC which had good demand, but not enough to sustain a 189 seater and long enough to be out of range of Qs |
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rajeev.jaya
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Karan69 wrote: | | ameya wrote: |
>2.5hrs Qs cant go and you cant deploy the B737s, because the routes are thin, so Ejets are better than Qs |
What routes do you see SG utilise an E Jet on?
And how many Aircrafts would you have them take?
The only one i know they can immediately deploy it on is DEL-STV-BOM-ATQ/IXC-SXR vv
Any other?
********************
Looks like SG have converted one of their 739ERs on order to -800, they seem to be struggling filling that aircraft.
Also last saturday my flights on SG loads were as follows
SG 2323 ATQ-DEL -- 41 pax
SG 103 DEL-BOM-COK 104 pax
Both flights a recorded welcome announcement was made in the local language --Punjabi for ATQ and Marathi for BOM, which was nice
Q400 as i mentioned has an uncomfortable window seat due to a floor beam meant to conceal wires, aisle seat is perfectly fine
737-800 the pilots were perhaps the worst set i have ever experienced, flew the aircraft very rashly
They taxied out from DEL apron on to RW 27 and then taxied back via the parking bay holding short of RW 28,
While landing in BOM, they made extremely rapid descends and hard right and left banks to allign themselves with RW 27.
Pathetic
Karan |
Recently flew on a 739ER from MAA to BOM at 535 AM. Hardly 120 pax. 6E and G8 also have flights around the same time.
Just not able to understand why you need 3a/c with roughly 550-570 capacity at such an unearthly hour.
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ameya
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Rajeev - its more to do with the slot problems in MAA. As you start inducting capacity, you only get this early morning slots. |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: | | They have recently closed NAG/NDC which had good demand, but not enough to sustain a 189 seater and long enough to be out of range of Qs |
What am I missing here? I thought the Q's could comfortably do any domestic route in the country - and they're faster than ATRs (though slower than Jets).
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Nimish
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| rajeev.jaya wrote: | Recently flew on a 739ER from MAA to BOM at 535 AM. Hardly 120 pax. 6E and G8 also have flights around the same time.
Just not able to understand why you need 3a/c with roughly 550-570 capacity at such an unearthly hour. |
The best was my flight MAA-BLR at the same morbid time - hardly 30-40 pax on a 737!
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rajeev.jaya
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | rajeev.jaya wrote: | Recently flew on a 739ER from MAA to BOM at 535 AM. Hardly 120 pax. 6E and G8 also have flights around the same time.
Just not able to understand why you need 3a/c with roughly 550-570 capacity at such an unearthly hour. |
The best was my flight MAA-BLR at the same morbid time - hardly 30-40 pax on a 737! |
MAA has some 15 deps before 600 AM.
SG deps to PUNE and CCU at 450 AM also hardly have 80-100 pax.
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ameya
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| rajeev.jaya wrote: | | Nimish wrote: | | rajeev.jaya wrote: | Recently flew on a 739ER from MAA to BOM at 535 AM. Hardly 120 pax. 6E and G8 also have flights around the same time.
Just not able to understand why you need 3a/c with roughly 550-570 capacity at such an unearthly hour. |
The best was my flight MAA-BLR at the same morbid time - hardly 30-40 pax on a 737! |
MAA has some 15 deps before 600 AM.
SG deps to PUNE and CCU at 450 AM also hardly have 80-100 pax. |
Even 9W departs to PNQ from CCU before 0600 hour now |
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ameya
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | ameya wrote: | | They have recently closed NAG/NDC which had good demand, but not enough to sustain a 189 seater and long enough to be out of range of Qs |
What am I missing here? I thought the Q's could comfortably do any domestic route in the country - and they're faster than ATRs (though slower than Jets). |
The Q400 would have a range of close to 2000KM however the speed is 600kmp, which is definitely faster than the ATR but slower than the Jets
I think the ATR does 1400KM at 500 kmph |
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rajeev.jaya
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: | | rajeev.jaya wrote: | | Nimish wrote: | | rajeev.jaya wrote: | Recently flew on a 739ER from MAA to BOM at 535 AM. Hardly 120 pax. 6E and G8 also have flights around the same time.
Just not able to understand why you need 3a/c with roughly 550-570 capacity at such an unearthly hour. |
The best was my flight MAA-BLR at the same morbid time - hardly 30-40 pax on a 737! |
MAA has some 15 deps before 600 AM.
SG deps to PUNE and CCU at 450 AM also hardly have 80-100 pax. |
Even 9W departs to PNQ from CCU before 0600 hour now |
Does it make sense to have 2 flights to PUNE at that unearthly hour !!!
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abhigopal
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | rajeev.jaya wrote: | Recently flew on a 739ER from MAA to BOM at 535 AM. Hardly 120 pax. 6E and G8 also have flights around the same time.
Just not able to understand why you need 3a/c with roughly 550-570 capacity at such an unearthly hour. |
The best was my flight MAA-BLR at the same morbid time - hardly 30-40 pax on a 737! |
The morning 9W flight ? I take this flight a lot and is usually at least 70% full. Maybe one off! |
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Karan69
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: |
The Q400 would have a range of close to 2000KM however the speed is 600kmp, which is definitely faster than the ATR but slower than the Jets
I think the ATR does 1400KM at 500 kmph |
Which Feasible route in India has over 2000km range?
I doubt there is need for the E jets when you already have Qs
Karan |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Karan69 wrote: | | ameya wrote: |
The Q400 would have a range of close to 2000KM however the speed is 600kmp, which is definitely faster than the ATR but slower than the Jets
I think the ATR does 1400KM at 500 kmph |
Which Feasible route in India has over 2000km range?
I doubt there is need for the E jets when you already have Qs
Karan |
The decision will be based on cost of spares and high end scheduled checks apart from fuel comsumption.
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ameya
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Karan -
There is no feasible route over 2000 kms in India. However, let me try explaining it to you with an example.
6E dumped capacity on BLR LKO and BLR JAI, which were a 1 stop same aircraft route starting 2-3 years ago. Since they had a lot of planes coming, they had to dump capacity. To start of with such a long route, iti s always feasible to induct small capacity, where the Ejets come into picture.
By your logic, its less than 2000 kms, so even Q can operate but it woulod operate at a speed of 550kmph v/s 890 kmph of a Ejet.
Again, when a route has a demand of 200 seats, its not at one time of the day, so if I deploye 100 seats twice a day I tend to offer better service than deploying 180 seats once a day |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| abhigopal wrote: | | The morning 9W flight ? I take this flight a lot and is usually at least 70% full. Maybe one off! |
What is the benefit of taking a 5 am flight on MAA_BLR? Won't a 7 am flight be sufficient - both to wake up at a decent hour in MAA - and to reach your workplace by 10 or 11 am?
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abhigopal
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | abhigopal wrote: | | The morning 9W flight ? I take this flight a lot and is usually at least 70% full. Maybe one off! |
What is the benefit of taking a 5 am flight on MAA_BLR? Won't a 7 am flight be sufficient - both to wake up at a decent hour in MAA - and to reach your workplace by 10 or 11 am? |
In the winter schedule, this flight is at 6AM. I wanted to reach work before 9AM and hence take this flight, |
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Karan69
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: |
Again, when a route has a demand of 200 seats, its not at one time of the day, so if I deploye 100 seats twice a day I tend to offer better service than deploying 180 seats once a day |
Understood your example of frquency over capacity and duration,
However both the ATR and Q400s have been bought for the reason that they have lower costs than Jets and meant to operate the BLR-JAI flights you mention, and anyways given SG pathetic utilisation can easily accomplish the said double daily flights
But there are also costs associated with operating multiple flights, an extra set of crew and ground staff, also with India having breakeven loads in the higher 80%, it is difficult to sustain such costs.
Coming to 6E,
in order to stimulate demand to such untapped or thin markets , 6E has countered those 180 seats by offering one stop same aircraft services for pax to go from LKO-JAI in the example you mention and picking up passengers to BLR along the way.
Similarly they offer same plane service from AMD-GOI and IXC via BOM, and multiple other such cities
So in a nutshell each one will do what works for them
I personally prefer the E jets over the Q400s any day both as a pax and an armchair ceo, but given an airline has already bought one there is no need to buy the other
IMHO, our country does not need anything larger than the E-190-100 except on a few trunk routes
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ameya
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Are the two SG birds back from NAS ? |
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abhijith16
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: | | Are the two SG birds back from NAS ? |
Yes, both VT-SGE and VT-SGS were returned to Spicejet on the 15 November. They were put into service on 18th.
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iah87
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Karan69 wrote: | | ameya wrote: |
Again, when a route has a demand of 200 seats, its not at one time of the day, so if I deploye 100 seats twice a day I tend to offer better service than deploying 180 seats once a day |
Understood your example of frquency over capacity and duration,
However both the ATR and Q400s have been bought for the reason that they have lower costs than Jets and meant to operate the BLR-JAI flights you mention, and anyways given SG pathetic utilisation can easily accomplish the said double daily flights
But there are also costs associated with operating multiple flights, an extra set of crew and ground staff, also with India having breakeven loads in the higher 80%, it is difficult to sustain such costs.
Coming to 6E,
in order to stimulate demand to such untapped or thin markets , 6E has countered those 180 seats by offering one stop same aircraft services for pax to go from LKO-JAI in the example you mention and picking up passengers to BLR along the way.
Similarly they offer same plane service from AMD-GOI and IXC via BOM, and multiple other such cities
So in a nutshell each one will do what works for them
I personally prefer the E jets over the Q400s any day both as a pax and an armchair ceo, but given an airline has already bought one there is no need to buy the other
IMHO, our country does not need anything larger than the E-190-100 except on a few trunk routes
Karan |
There are some long thin routes which could be served by small jets, and they are mostly from Delhi to South India-
DEL-Madurai, Mangalore, Visakhapatnam, Vijayawada, Trivandrum. |
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ameya
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| They are actually across, but primarily from DEL, like the DEL-COKs and the DEL-IXEs |
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abhijith16
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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CJB-BLR/MAA (early morning) cancelled effective from Nov 29.
SG has to stop cancelling with a short notice, it basically creates a negative sentiment with the airline.
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ameya
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Its too risky to book SG flights these days, you never know what kind of changes they would do |
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rajeev.jaya
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| abhijith16 wrote: | CJB-BLR/MAA (early morning) cancelled effective from Nov 29.
SG has to stop cancelling with a short notice, it basically creates a negative sentiment with the airline. |
This is expected and it is too MUCH to have 3 738's daily on MAA-CJB.
BLR-CJB could have worked had it been palced at a more convenient timing. Remember 9W has 3 deps daily on this route and only one if them is ATR.
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abhijith16
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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SG commences Kochi-Dubai effective from December 10th
SG017 COK1710 -1950DXB B73H D
SG018 DXB2045 - 0225COK B73H D
Why, SG , why would you launch a flight without giving it enough time to sell????? Why on earth would you do that?
I guess SG hired 9W managers, too..
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avbuff
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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So now Indian carriers have 207 weekly flights to DXB whereas DXB carriers have 194.
another 3 daily flights to DXB is expected to be added by Indian carriers. |
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nadarji
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| avbuff wrote: | So now Indian carriers have 207 weekly flights to DXB whereas DXB carriers have 194.
another 3 daily flights to DXB is expected to be added by Indian carriers. |
Anything rumored from TRV? |
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avbuff
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes very likely that 6E will announce TRV - DXB. |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hopefully with a couple of LCCs offering Kerala-Gulf flights, the demands for Air-Kerala will slow down!
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abhijith16
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | Hopefully with a couple of LCCs offering Kerala-Gulf flights, the demands for Air-Kerala will slow down! |
Sadly, they're just going to Dubai, not Saudi, Kuwait or Qatar..
Keralites don't realise, AIX is the only capable airline on the route. Unfortunately, AI's Nastiness Factory works with IX as well, hence the airline doesn't go down so well with it's ground service.
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nadarji
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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DXB would hopefully be the first, with AUH/SHJ/MCT/BAH/DOH to follow.
Saudi Arabia has almost the same number of expats as UAE has. I often wonder why AI doesnt add frequencies/destinations to KSA from Kerala. The bilateral with KSA itself isnt as expansive as that with UAE. |
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avbuff
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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The India - Saudi bilateral is pretty restrictive. Besides Saudi is far from Kerala, thus LCCs goig on payload restrictions thus making it economically nonviable.
Also the reason why airlines flock to DXB is because of the traffic and catchment area when compared to other GCC points. |
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iah87
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| abhijith16 wrote: | SG commences Kochi-Dubai effective from December 10th
SG017 COK1710 -1950DXB B73H D
SG018 DXB2045 - 0225COK B73H D
Why, SG , why would you launch a flight without giving it enough time to sell????? Why on earth would you do that?
I guess SG hired 9W managers, too.. |
Why do they have such horrible arrival time at COK. I understand with EK, they have connecting banks at DXB, but Spicejet, especially as a new entrant should have a more sensible arrival time. |
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avbuff
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| It has been proven time and again that these timings are desired by people from both ends. |
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Theairplaneguy4ever
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| avbuff wrote: | | It has been proven time and again that these timings are desired by people from both ends. |
Maybe, but many still prefer arriving at DXB in the morning. Tourists in particular.
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