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karatecatman
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 Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hope this thread is not going to make it a hatrick --- the third to get locked!!! 
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What the Czech press has to say on the lease to Air India.
http://launch.praguemonitor.com/en/39/7/2638/
Czech Airlines (ČSA) announced yesterday it will no longer operate regular flights between Prague and Dubai because they are not profitable. The company will rent out the aircraft it has been using on this route to Air India for one year, including its two Czech pilots and the head of its cabin crew. Air India will use the Airbus A310 for regular flights from Dubai to Bangkok via Hong Kong, and from Dubai to Delhi via Kuala Lumpur.
Last year ČSA announced its transcontinental flights, served by four Airbus A310 aircraft, were not profitable and that it might eliminate the long-haul fleet in the future.
ČSA is to publish its 2006 business results today. Aktuálně.cz reported yesterday the carrier will post a loss of CZK 400 million, CZK 700 million less than in 2005 and a better result than management had expected. |
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avbuff
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 5031
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | AvBuff: The question that arises is what benefits a merger is going to bring. And lets be realistic here. Arent we doing this JUST to save AI? |
Yes thats what the govt is trying to do save the losses because let it be AI or IC it is the taxpayers money and you guys (because iam a student) who pay the money. So eventually whatever steps taken , you and me are going to be benefitted.
| Quote: | | What will a merger achieve? REDUCTION of frequencies in sectors like SIN? Why? |
i dont think there will be reduction of flights to SIN is a very lucrative market and since all of them coexist the flight schedules can be properly spaced and provide good inward domestic connections
I really dont think they should do it
And one some routes if they have withdrawn .. imagine with those a/c s they can start new destinations and upgrade frequencies to many destinations
| Quote: | | The attempt here is to cross-sibsidize IC's profits to make up for AI's losses. And that is hardly any way to go about things. |
So its a good thing that this is happening its YOUR money that will not go in drain .
| Quote: | | To sum up: the MERGER shows no direct benefit. 120 aircraft figure being touted is meaningless if AI cant manage to deploy its existing aircraft properly. Have youseen the kind o fideas that have come out of AI? BEG, 757's 767's, leasing OUT their 737-800's to IC etc etc! |
Well even IC has many A320's that are simply lying on the ground and no one has offered any explanation to that . The IC flights to the gulf invariably give some or the other technical snags every fortnight
In Doha the IC flight being operated daily has a technical snag after every 10 days resulting in hopeless delays ill treating passengers etc etc.
The thing is IC is not posting that good profits that it needs to be applauded and I would definitely like to see one national carrier and focus on that |
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Nimish
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Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: |
Jaysit: Dont get personal. Moderators please note. |
Unfortunately for you COUGAR, it seems like you're the one constantly badmouthing, spouting unsubstantial claims and conspiracy theories all along, all of which are stated as facts. If I were to listen to you - this whole merger is a conspiracy theory hatched by PP to:
* Benefit 9W
* Shut down IC - which is a "massively successful" company
* Bring down the merged entity, all to exclusively benefit AI
* etc. etc.
You seem to have no concern for the actual people who matter - that is the flying population. And IMO PP's moves are meant to benefit them, not IC or 9W or a single entity.
Clearly for the IC defenders here - A380 and Cougar, economics/logic and the country's needs have no place, only thing that counts being stuck in the same rut - that the merger makes no sense. The fact that experienced consultants, industry experts, and the flying population want better connectivity/synergy, has no place in your views. |
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tayaramecanici
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | COUGAR wrote: |
Jaysit: Dont get personal. Moderators please note. |
Unfortunately for you COUGAR, it seems like you're the one constantly badmouthing, spouting unsubstantial claims and conspiracy theories all along, all of which are stated as facts. If I were to listen to you - this whole merger is a conspiracy theory hatched by PP to:
* Benefit 9W
* Shut down IC - which is a "massively successful" company
* Bring down the merged entity, all to exclusively benefit AI
* etc. etc.
You seem to have no concern for the actual people who matter - that is the flying population. And IMO PP's moves are meant to benefit them, not IC or 9W or a single entity.
Clearly for the IC defenders here - A380 and Cougar, economics/logic and the country's needs have no place, only thing that counts being stuck in the same rut - that the merger makes no sense. The fact that experienced consultants, industry experts, and the flying population want better connectivity/synergy, has no place in your views. |
Nimish in your capacity as a MODERATOR personally i expect a bi-partisan view when it comes to dispute resolution. Do not sound as the last word. I thoroughly enjoy this forum and strongly believe it should have more of these debates especially controversial topics involving dubious characters like NG.
If he was a holy cow he wouldn't have had allegations thrown at him time and again since his entry Airline business (1993). We all know that his crime - if any, has not been proved till date but then he doesn't give you the feeling of being a scrupulous industrialist like the TATA's either or closer to the industry Capt Gopinath.
Though i don't completely subscribe to COUGAR's analysis i do sympthaise with his views on NG and so do the authorities and entities who investigated this character till date. Lets not forget ENRON, it took a while, and with powerful friends Ken lay had managed to pull the wool over many agencies. We all know its a matter of time.......
My suggestion is that, as we all know the MODs are the most enthusiastic airline buffs as evident from the creation of this site. So if any one of the MODs has dived into a discussion head-on its prudent of him to keep off being a MOD especially in the related topic.
Some of us have overt and covert allagiance to entities being discussed as long as it doesn't get very acrimonous or abusive pls DONOT LOCK threads ever. |
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tayaramecanici
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: | What about Vijay Mallya?  VM has been at the recvg end of quite a few of PP's missives.
Anyways the point is that a profitable and well managed domestic airline, and one that is giving stiff competition to the private players and playing the role of a stabilzing force in Indian civil aviation is being systematically reduced to the status of a mule thus killing it.
<edited> |
I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere. I saw PP being interviewed by Vir Sanghvi on NDTV Last week. Vir did ask leading Q to PP about his buddies NG and VM however Vir claimed that NG was upset about VM getting a good deal out of maint support from IA and the use of T2 at Mumbai dom.
Its only in apna desh where the minister for civil aviation boasts his friendship with 2 of the most controversial (agressive) players in the Aviation industry.
PP did make a stale socialist statement about why AI / IA should be promoted to keep a check on the Pvt players......... or rather subsidise his buddies. AI have brought B777 & B737NG sims guess which airlines get to ride in it alongside or before AI. |
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Nimish: I have clearly laid the reasons why the merger would not achieve any of the objectives being touted as teh erasons for the merger. Howexactly would merger benefit the carriers and indeed the flying population considering the diversity in fleets in management, so on and so forth? How exaqctly would a merger benefit?
And wouldnt these benefits come from synergised operations? if you compare the 2 options: synergiy and merger, in an unbioased manner you will yourself come to the same conclusion that a merger is a nutty idea!
As for PP and his connections with NG, I hardly think that is conjecture anymore. I can prove it and indeed NG's family links. And another member on this board can PERSONALLY vouch for this fact! And I think yiou know what I am talking about!! 
<edited>
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the_380
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | Clearly for the IC defenders here - A380 and Cougar, economics/logic and the country's needs have no place, only thing that counts being stuck in the same rut - that the merger makes no sense. The fact that experienced consultants, industry experts, and the flying population want better connectivity/synergy, has no place in your views. |
What if the merged airline makes loses? You'll stop paying your taxes?
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Aseem
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Lets get on with this interesting topic all over again, leaving behing any acrimony.
rgds
Aseem
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Nimish: Please explain the logic behind merging a profit making, relatively well managed airline into an unprofitable, poorly managed airline like Air India and destorying the brand of the earlier airline in the process.
Indian Airlines as a brand has greater value and can command a greater price if both players were to enter the stock market separately.
When examined from ANY angle this merger doesnt make sense.
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the_380
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: |
When examined from ANY angle this merger doesnt make sense. |
How do you expect it to? Its just another fraud babu idea to destroy the carriers. And some people talk of paying their taxes on these airlines
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| the_380 wrote: |
What if the merged airline makes loses? You'll stop paying your taxes? |
Have you stopped paying your taxes during the 60 years when AI and IC made collective losses?
Then what is the point of your logic, that is if you even have any?
Just where do these economic and antitrust experts pop up from? We have a conspiracy theorist who basically pollutes this board with his endless unfounded, biased drivel that under any standards would count as libel. And then we have individuals who spout economic theories that would fail the laugh test even in Pyong yang.
Sometimes I wonder why we even bother to refute them. Let them just natter on like old aunties. |
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tayaramecanici
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: | Nimish: Please explain the logic behind merging a profit making, relatively well managed airline into an unprofitable, poorly managed airline like Air India and destorying the brand of the earlier airline in the process.
Indian Airlines as a brand has greater value and can command a greater price if both players were to enter the stock market separately.
When examined from ANY angle this merger doesnt make sense. |
Be it the Maharaja, the AI bldg or the Taj Mahal windows everything about AI is iconic as a brand, i can't think of a single thing about IA that creates brand recognition considering everything else that matters about a good airline like IFS, IFE, On time dep, safety record etc being the same.
The merger doesn't make sense with ONE-EYE looking at the interest of IA only.
For the govt to list the PSU (as stated by the PM Today) it makes sense to merge the 2.
1. You don't duplicate the listing process.
2. End of the day AI and IA irrespective of however good a BRAND they are individually have not returned the investment to the TAX payer.
3. A merged entity will have at the least some synergy in the Exec, if not the employees. In the long run You won't need 2 MDs and Directors for each dept and another dept in the Human resources ministry evaluating candidates for these post every 2yrs.
4. If they follow the Air Lanka model of auctioning the management control over to a reputed Indian business house a merged entity will attract quality bidders as opposed to 2 seperate govt airlines (in reality its 4 airlines) with totally skewed models. In 1995 the TATAs, LNM, HINDUJAs and Dhoots were some of the interested parties. Present day economics make these airlines all the more attractive for these same business folks.
5. And at the end of the day GOI needs to regulate the industry without being a competitor. With a 51% holding they can initiate any emergency calls for deploying the aircrafts on rescue missions.
Having personally involved in a business plan to takeover the Engg of AI / IA. A back of the envelope number crunching will tell you the present infastructure can generate revenues of over $1b/annum. The reality is that IA can't maintain a fleet of 40 (IIRC) A320s in a airworthy condition and AI have all but stopped Heavy maint inspite of their mamoth facility at Old Airport, for your information the Take home wage of the Licensed Engineers in these 2 airlines is close to that of a avg LAE wage in EU or UAE. As a engineer it absolutely sucks and for a 3rd world country like INDIA its a criminal waste only to pamper some inefficient employees.
Merge it and get rid of it. |
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: |
All Jaysit has to offer are uneducated rants about how bad we Indians are as compared to his adopted country. Babus...Left Wing Govt...Akshay Kumar...Bipashu Basu....slums...yada yada yada....
And as for "gossip": I am still waiting for Jaysit to backup his ridiculous "40% loads to Singapore" claims. |
Man, you are truly clueless.
That was a statistical scenario presented as an example on how mergers on competitive routes could make sense.
Just what universe do you live in.
ANd by the way, its not how all Indians are bad. Its how "some" Indians talk rubbish and who run down the image of India. Don't even put yourself in the category of other Indians on this board who are honest, bring brevity to the discussion and contribute to this forum. |
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the_380
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Location: Mumbai, India
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: | | Have you stopped paying your taxes during the 60 years when AI and IC made collective losses? |
Thats what i am saying... when during the past 60 years IC and AI made losses you paid your taxes as you should ... now if the merged airline makes losses then what will you do stop paying taxes?
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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www.tehelka.com/story_main27.asp?filename=Bu100307Mid_air.asp
AIR INDIA-INDIAN MERGER
Mid-Air Turbulence
Factors like employee restructuring and varying fleets have to be taken care of for it to succeed
Quotes:
Indian carriers are expected to post a total loss of $500 million this financial year
Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel has already held meetings with trade union leaders wary of the fallout of the merger, and its possible impact on restructuring employees in the world’s fastest-growing aviation industry, which faces a rank shortage of infrastructure and skilled personnel.
“There is resentment all round over how the merger will eventually take place and how managerial roles will be decided.... And let us not forget the stamp duty that runs into hundreds of crores. Who pays for that?” says an airline union source.
Patel wants a group chairman managing director for the merged entity with special business units headed by separate ceos to run as independent profit-centres for both domestic and international operations, cargo business, ground handling, maintenance, repair and overhaul, low-cost carriers and other allied activities. |
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Aseem
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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folks
the discussion on this topic is going through an interesting phase and we all are curious about the merger. I understand that it is easy to get carried away, but I would strongly urge you all from getting personal while putting forward your point.
thnks
VT-ASJ
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COUGAR
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Location: Bangalore
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Aseem wrote: | folks
the discussion on this topic is going through an interesting phase and we all are curious about the merger. I understand that it is easy to get carried away, but I would strongly urge you all from getting personal while putting forward your point.
thnks
VT-ASJ |
I agree Aseem. For a debate its important to keep things civil.
Unfortunaltely this point is lost on someone.
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COUGAR
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Location: Bangalore
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: |
That was a statistical scenario presented as an example on how mergers on competitive routes could make sense.
Just what universe do you live in.
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So basically you dont have anything to backup the 40% loads crap...! Just as i thought.
| Jaysit wrote: |
ANd by the way, its not how all Indians are bad. Its how "some" Indians talk rubbish and who run down the image of India. Don't even put yourself in the category of other Indians on this board who are honest, bring brevity to the discussion and contribute to this forum. |
Yeah i know! Some indians can be like that. And I dont blame them. Living in a foreign land, where its important to prove your loyalty to the foreign dream, the best way to do it is often to diss your own.
Perhaps this explains the consistent whining queen!
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| tayaramecanici wrote: |
Be it the Maharaja, the AI bldg or the Taj Mahal windows everything about AI is iconic as a brand, i can't think of a single thing about IA that creates brand recognition considering everything else that matters about a good airline like IFS, IFE, On time dep, safety record etc being the same.
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AI, Maharaja yada yada WAS an "iconic" brand way back in the 70's not NOW. BIG DIFFERENCE. The world has changed since then and now. And AI hasnt kept pace. The brand has near zero recognition today. Rememmber the huge protests the last time AI changed it livery and removed the Palace windows etc? Did you see that kind of protest today?
AI employees or their children however live in a different world thinking that the world still cares about the AI brand. Yeah right they do!
As far as brand identity is concerned, i'd rather go by a study conducted by the Advertising Council of India- the IC logo and brand showed better instant identity - right up there with Amul and Nirma!
| tayaramecanici wrote: |
The merger doesn't make sense with ONE-EYE looking at the interest of IA only.
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Similarly the merger will make sense ONLY if you see it ONE or BOTH eyes on AI. AI needs the profitable IC to survive.
| tayaramecanici wrote: |
Having personally involved in a business plan to takeover the Engg of AI / IA. A back of the envelope number crunching will tell you the present infastructure can generate revenues of over $1b/annum. The reality is that IA can't maintain a fleet of 40 (IIRC) A320s in a airworthy condition and AI have all but stopped Heavy maint inspite of their mamoth facility at Old Airport, for your information the Take home wage of the Licensed Engineers in these 2 airlines is close to that of a avg LAE wage in EU or UAE. As a engineer it absolutely sucks and for a 3rd world country like INDIA its a criminal waste only to pamper some inefficient employees.
|
IC's maintenance is in any case much better condition than AI. Infact it is a contributor to the priofitability. AI mgmt ran their own maintenance units into the ground. And now youwant to hand over a well managed profitable operation to those jokers?
A study conducted by the eGoM very clearly said that the govt would fetch a better valuation (thus better return on taxpayers money) if the 2 entitites were listed separately. Also a very important point is that if divested separately, AI can be divested COMPLETELY, while the Govt can continue to hold on a 26% stake in IC: because the roles they play are completely different.
It would have been a completely differnet matter if AI was being merged into Indian. If the babus from Tripura were sent back to Agartala to tend to the palace gardens there, while airline professionals like Trivedi and the "Teen Deviyan" ran the airline. But we dont see that!
Instead what we are seeing in the name of a merger is the destruction of a powerful and competitive brand and its merger into an unprofessional, pathetically managed shithole called Air India.
I understand you have a connection with Ai India KCM. But this is not a place for emotions. Its business. Think about it rationally and you will begin to see better valuations if the airlines are kept separate.
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
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A very Interesting & debateable Thread.
Its a Sad state for the Airlnes involved.I would personally def like to see privatisaton & a reduction of Extra Manpower.Less political Interference & give the Airlines a chance to compete with the Best.
Currently the Merger & the Airlines Involved seem to be moving in Three Different Directions.Theres no coordination & a lot of Duplication.Waste of Hard earned Money.
regds
MEL
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VABBy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | A very Interesting & debateable Thread.
Currently the Merger & the Airlines Involved seem to be moving in Three Different Directions.Theres no coordination & a lot of Duplication.Waste of Hard earned Money |
Well said Mel thats what i want to knw what will the goverment gain from the merger all this hue and cry abt the yeilds cud have been tackled with the code share and route allocation.
Recently PMO office had also citied that more and more PSU,s shud have themselves listed at Stock Exchanges if they wanted to be so proffessional i am sure the management shud have listed the co.
Surprisigly GAIL & SAIL are listed at NYSE i believe... the same cud have been done for AI & IC seperately...
All this talk abt of synergization only looks gud wen there is a commonality between the 2 airlines. Besides that they are govt owned and that they have common flying returns program they have got nothing
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karatecatman
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Nimish
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| tayaramecanici wrote: | Nimish in your capacity as a MODERATOR personally i expect a bi-partisan view when it comes to dispute resolution. ...
My suggestion is that, as we all know the MODs are the most enthusiastic airline buffs as evident from the creation of this site. So if any one of the MODs has dived into a discussion head-on its prudent of him to keep off being a MOD especially in the related topic. |
Hi TM - thanks for your note, and I agree with most of what you say. In this case I had to respond since Cougar mentioned the mods in his earlier post, and I had to then respond on the "official" note. Otherwise it's been participation as a regular user! |
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Maharajah may be retained after all.
Rohita Jaidka, Air India's general manager for Northern India was in the Gulf recently and she says that the Government has decided that the merged carrier will retain the Maharajah. |
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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KCM: Ten people say ten different things and nobody is any wiser as to what is goin to happen. Considering the confusion over what is actually going to happen, it is good that IC is continuing with its plans rather than putting them on hold. Who knows what is going to happen? The cabinet had even earlier cleared the merger of the 2 airlines: back when CM Ibrahim was Civil Av Minister in 1998. But we all know what happened then!
There have been numerous reports of the Maharaja being abandoned in order to come out with a new youthful image: the emphasis being on YOUNG and DYNAMIC. The jokers at AI are keeping it hush-hush however thinking that the world will be sad to see the Maharaja go. Yeah like anybody outside AI cares about the Maharaja!
The first sign of this are the ads featuring Sania Mirza. The buzz is that some international rock-star puppy is being signed along with Asha Bhosle for composing some new song and all zat. See the confusion? International rock star dancing with old-aunty Asha!! They should really make up their mind!
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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AIR India Express will start sevices to Qatar later this month. ‘Operations are scheduled to start on March 25 but the airline’s management has not cleared ticket sales yet.
Services will be available to AI’s four existing destinations of Mumbai, Kozhikode, Kochi, Thiruvananthapuram -- - and the latest addition Mangalore.
The detailed AIX schedule for summer has been posted in this thread but may be a page or two back!!
***
Repeating it again:
Latest on Air India Express:
Air India Express will be increasing the number of weekly flights to 116 (from 83 currently) in the summer schedule from March 27.
Kerala will gain the most as the number of weekly flights from there will go up to 58 from 44 now.
Other details are:
Double daily operations between Chennai and Singapore, which includes three flights from Trichy.
Daily services between Chennai and Colombo.
Three flights between Chennai, Trichy and Dubai have also been planned.
Nine flights from Mangalore to the Gulf, which includes five flights to Dubai, two to Abu Dhabi/Muscat and two to Doha/Bahrain.
Pune gets more attention!
Two flights between Pune and Singapore and three from Pune to Dubai.
Daily services between Abu Dhabi and Trivandrum, Kochi, Calicut.
Seven additional flights between Kerala and Sharjah.
Starting December 2006, AIX has got its own aircraft -- 2 joined in December, three in January and one in February in 2007.
Four more aircrafts are to be delivered before end-2007.
IA top brass is not too happy with this schedule. |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Cougar wrote: | | And wouldnt these benefits come from synergised operations? if you compare the 2 options: synergiy and merger, in an unbioased manner you will yourself come to the same conclusion that a merger is a nutty idea! |
No synergy for the past 5 (or 25) years definitely points to no synergy for the next 5 years as well. Now if both parties had sat down and acted "synergetically", things would have been quite different today. But at this stage, it's clear that both AI and IC are not interested in synergy, hence it's definitely in my good that they be forced to come together and be privatized. Privatizing these carriers is really what's needed, and the merger is a good step towards that.
| Cougar wrote: | | As for PP and his connections with NG, I hardly think that is conjecture anymore. I can prove it and indeed NG's family links. |
PP needs to know everyone in the industry, I can hardly imagine him operating without meeting with VM or Gopi or others.
But please do prove your "conspiracy theory" that the "merger is an attempt to bring down IC to directly benefit 9W". I'd really love to see that proved.
| Cougar wrote: | Nimish: Please explain the logic behind merging a profit making, relatively well managed airline into an unprofitable, poorly managed airline like Air India and destorying the brand of the earlier airline in the process.
Indian Airlines as a brand has greater value and can command a greater price if both players were to enter the stock market separately. |
I don't know what brand value you're talking about and where you get this info from. In the last few "top brands of India" lists, I don't think I've seen IC there. Besides to the lay person brought up on hordes of movies, the brand of AI/Maharaja is definitely higher than that of IC. And to the informed person (the traveler), ICs brand is equal to the lowest of the low, I'm yet to meet any corporate traveler (barring the PSU dudes) who travels IC out of choice. So this whole message you're conveying about "IC is a huge brand etc." seems false and unproven to me. Please bring up the survey where IC was shown as a "top notch brand" or whatever you're calling it.
| Cougar wrote: | | When examined from ANY angle this merger doesnt make sense. |
When examined from any angle, this merger makes perfect sense, as it's the logical first step to getting the govt out of the business of running airlines. You're stuck at the first step about how IC will be raped and pillaged by the hordes from AI, unfortunately you forget that IC/AI have been doing that to the flying population for the past many decades and it's a good time to put an end to that. |
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COUGAR
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Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Bangalore
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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AI cribs about IC encroaching on its territory. And they have been doing exactly the same thing by operating purely domestic flights (inculding a new one to BLR?) and now this new PNQ-SIN fligth where IC is already a succesful player.
What are they trying to prove with this 2x a week flight?
AIX whenit started had a specific agenda: to serve the market to the gulf in a lower cost base than mainline AI so as to bring down the atrocious fare levels on the Kerala to Gulf routes.
And now we see AI and AIX both operating to SIN!! Confused planning? What are these jokers thinking?
And now people want these jokers to take over IC and ruin a profitable airline?
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | | Currently the Merger & the Airlines Involved seem to be moving in Three Different Directions.Theres no coordination & a lot of Duplication.Waste of Hard earned Money. |
I would definitely question the wisdom of the management of the 2 airlines, especially in the light that the merger has now been approved by the eGOM. This is the time for them to come together, work with the consultants and start integrating, but instead, they're happy blowing up more of the public's money! |
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COUGAR
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Location: Bangalore
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Oh please Nimish! Movies where you see the AI logo are hardly an indication of popularity of a brand. That was a time when AI was the only international airline India had. Now there are half a dozen. The world has changed, and AI has changed as well only for the worse.
AI is nowhere close to what it used to be. When you say that the AI brand has a certain "recall" you are talking of 20 years ago. The average joe Indian today hardly knows or indeed cares about the "Maharaja". I understand you have sentimental attachments to AI, by virtue of having played with planes marked with the maharaja when you were a kid.
But there is no place for sentiments here. its a simple case of business: will the airlines get better valuation after merger or as 2 separate entities. THAT is the question.
As for privatisation, I dont disagree with you. Both airlines need to be privatized in the long run. However my opinion is that the Govt will secure a better valuation if the 2 airlines are kept separate. It is not as easy as you think: just merge the airline and get it over with!
The Govt owns many oil companies. Why werent they all merged before being listed on the stock exchange? Why were they listed separately? Ever thought of that? The same logic applies here.
And mergin a profitable and well managed airline into a unprofessional shithole like AI is only going to destroy what is today a successful regional airline operation. IC can today give stiff competition to the Jets of the world. With those AI jokers running IC, we may as well hand over the market to 9W, KF etc.
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: | | Oh please Nimish! Movies where you see the AI logo are hardly an indication of popularity of a brand. That was a time when AI was the only international airline India had. |
Agreed. But I don't agree that the IC brand is anywhere close to how you perceive it to be. My point was illustrative to refute your statement that IC has a "great" brand, while you insist AI is a "rubbish" brand. That's simply not true, both are "rubbish" brands.
| COUGAR wrote: | | AI is nowhere close to what it used to be. When you say that the AI brand has a certain "recall" you are talking of 20 years ago. |
And neither does IC.
| COUGAR wrote: | | The average joe Indian today hardly knows or indeed cares about the "Maharaja". |
And neither does he know or care anything about IC. All the average Joe cares about is DN, Indigo, SpiceJet etc, not a doddering dinosaur like IC/AI
| COUGAR wrote: | | I understand you have sentimental attachments to AI, by virtue of having played with planes marked with the maharaja when you were a kid. |
Sadly enough - another completely untrue statement.
| COUGAR wrote: | | But there is no place for sentiments here. its a simple case of business: will the airlines get better valuation after merger or as 2 separate entities. THAT is the question. |
If the merger is executed well, the valuation will be far higher than from 2 single entities, both incomplete by themselves.
| COUGAR wrote: | | As for privatisation, I dont disagree with you. Both airlines need to be privatized in the long run. However my opinion is that the Govt will secure a better valuation if the 2 airlines are kept separate. It is not as easy as you think: just merge the airline and get it over with! |
And how do you think the govt will get a better valuation by keeping both separate, with each one spending money on doing stuff the other already does?
| COUGAR wrote: | | The Govt owns many oil companies. Why werent they all merged before being listed on the stock exchange? Why were they listed separately? Ever thought of that? The same logic applies here. |
Very valid point. However the orders of scale are so massively different, and the fact that each oil company is doing very well on it's own, makes the whole point redundant. Hence the same logic does not apply here.
| COUGAR wrote: | | And mergin a profitable and well managed airline into a unprofessional shithole like AI is only going to destroy what is today a successful regional airline operation. IC can today give stiff competition to the Jets of the world. With those AI jokers running IC, we may as well hand over the market to 9W, KF etc. |
And with AI/IC sitting together as one airline and running the show professionally, it's possible that 9W/IT etc will be severely hit since they don't have the economies of scale. But you'd rather that 9W/IT continue to milk the market and let the 2 inefficient PSUs continue? |
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the_380
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Posts: 2329
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Nimish,
only merger will never help....unless you actually change your standards of working. But yes if the govt agrees to sell out the merged airline totally to some decent and capable company then only will you be able to see some developments taking place
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Nimish
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Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| the_380 wrote: | | only merger will never help....unless you actually change your standards of working. But yes if the govt agrees to sell out the merged airline totally to some decent and capable company then only will you be able to see some developments taking place |
380/Cougar. AFAIK, merger is only the first step, the plan is in fact to sell the combined entity in a year or two. |
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the_380
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Posts: 2329
Location: Mumbai, India
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | 380/Cougar. AFAIK, merger is only the first step, the plan is in fact to sell the combined entity in a year or two. |
Mate, do you think our govt is that swift? The merger will slowly make things worse and if the airlines don't get their medicines on time it will be worse
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | .. the plan is in fact to sell the combined entity in a year or two. |
Even selling the idea of merger is proving uphill, which is why we are getting to hear of extended deadlines and a top to bottom approach --- tackle the weak managers first and then the workers.
Which also explains why a nervous Patel is attempting numerous behind-the-scenes meetings with IA's militant unions.
Given the state of politics in this country, the precarious state of the UPA and the fact that the coalition era is here to stay, this will/may just be a paper idea.
Shutting down a PSU or selling it (especially a PSU the size of AI/IA -- independent or merged) will just set off a chain reaction of consequences that no Govt. (one-party or coalition) will ever want to bear.
Last edited by karatecatman on Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tayaramecanici
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: | And wouldnt these benefits come from synergised operations? if you compare the 2 options: synergiy and merger, in an unbioased manner you will yourself come to the same conclusion that a merger is a nutty idea!
<edited> |
There has been a good deal of synergy into the planning and strategy, pre-merger. The choice of CFM-56 engines for the IA A320 is a classic example, inspite of the option of going for a improved and in use V25 which was being offered at a discounted price the mandarins at Vayu Bhavan choose the CFM-56. Commonality with AIX B737NG engines will help reduce Engine maintenance costs which are nearly 50% of the total Maint cost. The only diff between a CFM on the A320 and B737NG is the FAN diametre, its only a marginal cost. The choice of B737NG for AIX and A320 for IA also makes sense as both are optimal for their business model and mission.
The proposed long haul network of IA doesn't seem to overlap AI's present route network. IA is looking East ward and in direction of the southern Hemisphere.
On the statement of AIX and AI operating to SIN. IIRC SQ and TIGER (the LCC) both operate to India out of SIN. Again diff originating points have their specific product mix i.e. BOM - SIN has a large business traffic.
Asha Bhosale is still HOT in INDIA and the WEST, especially after 'Brimful of ASHA' sung by CORNERSHOP. They have cut another disc last week and its playing on FM here in London but most of the folks still remember ......ASHA.
Maharaja might be 70's and its the Kids of 70's like myself with the disposable moola who fly more often on leisure and Business. It is this very lot that AI is trying to attract and will end up introducing the AFFABLE MAHARAJA to another generation, my Kids. Whom do you think the ageing Rock bands are touring India and rest of the world for ? its for the same Kids and teenager of the 70's that swayed to their music.
You need to get away from your computer and step out more often mate. Go for a ride on your bike to Murud Janjira let the wind blow thru your hair  |
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Birendra
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Posts: 1411
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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 If the mod can succeed here with the mentioned members, then i guess we can expect that the merger would succeed too  |
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There has been a good deal of synergy into the planning and strategy, pre-merger. The choice of CFM-56 engines for the IA A320 is a classic example, inspite of the option of going for a improved and in use V25 which was being offered at a discounted price the mandarins at Vayu Bhavan choose the CFM-56. |
Just a coincidence.
No talk of merger at that time. In fact it is on record in Parliament that at this stage, Patel categorically denied that the two airlines will merge.
This was repeated to the Parliamentary commitee on Aviation.
IA has gone on record as saying that it was their dealings with IAE and IAE's attitude that largely tilted the scale in favour of CFM (prior to the grounding of the 14 A320s). It was never again V2500. IAE has still not repaired to satisfaction the engines and there was even a move to censure or blacklist IAE. (If this also helps, NDTV also recently showed "leaked" documents from IA's operations and Engg depts which clearly analysed on various technical parameters how the repaired engines were still underpar).
Of course for public consumption, it will always be about "IA getting a taste of some medicine as it never paid its dues to IAE". |
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Jaysit
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 4346
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: |
As for PP and his connections with NG, I hardly think that is conjecture anymore. I can prove it and indeed NG's family links. And another member on this board can PERSONALLY vouch for this fact! And I think yiou know what I am talking about!!
<edited> |
Then prove it.
So far, all your accusations (PP's wife being on Jet's board, etc.) have been refuted by facts.
If you have facts, financial data, and other proof of wrong-doing, then go present it to the press, government investigators, the boards of other airlines who can present a civil suit for being a wronged party. Merely stating that you know some gossip, and that you can prove "family links" (when you've shown you can't) just takes this forum into the sewer of tawdry gossip, libel, and slander.
Also, merely stating that Jet will form a "monopoly" without understanding what a monopoly is (legally or economically) doesn't make an entity a monopoly. I suggest you thoroughly read and understand the policies enunciated by the Competition Commission of India (CCI) before you make such assertions again. If you get a hold of C. Chandrashekhar's analyses of CCI policies and perspectives, even better. He is a calm and neutral voice on antitrust in India (as well as other growing economies), and you may hopefully learn something. It will be good for you, and good for the forum as you take a breather and engage in some thoughtful study. |
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tayaramecanici
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Just a coincidence.
No talk of merger at that time.
Of course for public consumption, it will always be about "IA getting a taste of some medicine as it never paid its dues to IAE".[/quote]
The talk of merging the 2 has been on since the late 80's, i remember this being discussed during Rajiv's era whilst i was a employee of AI.
Suppliers behaving difficult on loosing new orders to rivals is a common trading issue. IA and V25 are no different in their behaviour, the fact is V25 has improved its product and have been offering discounts. IT, DN and GO have chossen V25 for their fleet. Read FI they have done a feature on AEROENGINES recently it shows market share of CFM vs V25. You'll notice V25 has gained back a good % of lost share in the last 2-3yrs. |
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