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aeroblogger
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 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:55 am Post subject: |
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http://www.livemint.com/Articles/PrintArticle.aspx?eat=tp&artid=472B703E-F597-11E1-90C3-000B5DABF613
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The government is yet to clear much-delayed payment for its Boeing Dreamliners and so around 20 Air India officials have spent about a month at the US company’s Charleston facility because they can’t fly the first two of them back yet, marking another low point for an airline that has had a surfeit of those in the past 18 months.
Locals are grateful that Air India’s order for 27 Boeing 787s has created jobs in the US, but curious as to when the aircraft will be inducted into the airline’s fleet.
State-owned Air India was quick to order the aircraft but its ambition to fly them remains mired in paperwork and bad planning, experts say. Japan’s ANA and Ethiopian have already taken delivery of their orders.
The law ministry is still vetting the so-called “delayed agreement” with Boeing for the supply of the planes, said an Air India official who asked not to be identified. The airline was to take delivery of the first three aircraft in August.
The pact was struck between Air India and Boeing over manufacturing and delivery delays amounting to three years, with the company to pay compensation. This is being vetted by the law ministry and can be enforced only after that.
Air India, meanwhile, seems to have jumped the gun and sent its team to Charleston to pick up the aircraft.
“While the cabinet has approved it (the contract) and there should be no objections, the law ministry has to still clear the wording and the final contract. It is still not very clear when this will happen,” the official added. “What do we pay Boeing without this contract?”
Air India cannot release any payments to Boeing till the contract is approved by the law ministry.
The three Dreamliners meant for Air India are ready and parked at Boeing’s South Carolina factory. A fourth was preparing for its maiden flight when its General Electric Co. engine blew up during a 28 July taxi test. Each plane has a list price of just over $200 million (around `1,100 crore).
Dinesh Keskar, Boeing’s senior vice-president of sales for Asia Pacific, held meetings with senior officials in the civil aviation ministry on Monday. He did not offer any comments.
An Air India team of 22 people, including four pilots and a dozen cabin crew members led by A.S. Soman, director, operations, has been in the US for a month to pick up the aircraft.
“Everyday you hear it is one more, or two more days,” said another Air India official. “Monday is a holiday (in the US), being Labour day. If money is transferred on Tuesday, then a departure on Wednesday is the earliest one can imagine,” said this person, who also didn’t want to be named.
The aircraft are to fly from Charleston to Delhi with a fuel stop in Frankfurt in between.
“The entire management was in unseemly hurry to position the crew for the ferry flight. This kind of nonsense has gone on for years,” said Mohan Ranganathan, an air safety expert and member of the government appointed Casac (civil aviation security advisory council), adding that Air India could have waited before sending the crew if the paperwork was not ready.
Typically, the crew for a ferry flight lands two to four days ahead of the departure.
“How have you got everyone sitting there for weeks?” Ranganathan said. “If the airline has survived for four weeks without these top management people camped in Charleston, then the airline could save the taxpayer’s money by making those positions redundant.”
Air India plans to fly the Dreamliners on domestic routes initially to get pilots accustomed to the planes.
“The Dreamliner deal seems as badly jinxed as the A320 deal that Indian Airlines had in the late 80s. Indian Airlines was also the launch customer for the A320s with the V2500 engines. That ended in a crash then and Dreamliner has started with a engine explosion at Chalerston,” Ranganathan said. His reference is to the Airbus A320 crash in Bangalore in 1990.
The second Air India official said the team at Charleston keeps getting asked when they’re taking the planes home. “It’s very embarrassing for the country.” |
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PAL@YWG
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| aeroblogger wrote: | http://www.livemint.com/Articles/PrintArticle.aspx?eat=tp&artid=472B703E-F597-11E1-90C3-000B5DABF613
| Quote: | An Air India team of 22 people, including four pilots and a dozen cabin crew members led by A.S. Soman, director, operations, has been in the US for a month to pick up the aircraft.
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There goes INR 1.1 crores (22 "We really didn't want to be here so early you know  " souls X30 days X meagre $300/day of Hotel exps per soul) of Indian Taxpayer's money up in the air!
This could have fed half a million poor citizens at least one meal (INR20)?
Where is the accountability?
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aeroblogger
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:07 am Post subject: |
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AI was under the impression that the delivery would happen a month ago... I doubt the people sitting around in CHS are happy either - they've been away from their families for a month...
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me111993
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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some movement is expected today; although don't count on it.
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aeroblogger
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| me111993 wrote: | | some movement is expected today; although don't count on it. |
MoL is expected to get the clarifications they are looking for today. If they are happy with those clarifications, they might pass the file. If they are not happy, we get to wait for more clarifications.
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jasepl
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| me111993 wrote: | | some movement is expected today; although don't count on it. |
That could mean anything from a babu farting or an AI auntie adjusting her saree... that's movement too, right? 
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sri_bom
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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787 delivers to Air India remains on hold, waiting on Law Ministry approval
4-Sep-12 10:55 AM
India's Law Ministry is reportedly still vetting the “delayed agreement” with Boeing for the supply of 787 aircraft (Live Mint, 04-Sep-2012). Air India cannot release any payments to Boeing until the contract is approved by the ministry. 22 Air India employees have reportedly been in the US for around a month awaiting approval to fly the first two 787s back to India. |
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sri_bom
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Air India has only four pilots capable of operating 787 equipment
4-Sep-12 11:40 AM
India's Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh said Air India has only four pilots capable of operating Boeing 787 equipment (Telegraph India, 02-Sep-2012). "According to the norms, around 90 pilots (commander and first officer), are required to fly the five Dreamliners. At present, four are available," Mr Singh said. The carrier is scheduled to receive five 787 by year-end, although a pilot shortage would limit the carrier's ability to effectively deploy the aircraft. |
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sri_bom
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | me111993 wrote: | | some movement is expected today; although don't count on it. |
That could mean anything from a babu farting or an AI auntie adjusting her saree... that's movement too, right? |
I could not help my self laughing out aloud when I read your comment Jaspel.
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me111993
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: |
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That pilot thing is such trash, about only 4 being ready, they have over 4 in Charleston itself now!
| jasepl wrote: | | me111993 wrote: | | some movement is expected today; although don't count on it. |
That could mean anything from a babu farting or an AI auntie adjusting her saree... that's movement too, right? |
could've very well meant that, however we had someother movement. Tomorrow evening arrival in DEL seems to be pretty much finalized.
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jasepl
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| sri_bom wrote: | | I could not help my self laughing out aloud when I read your comment Jaspel.Sri_Bom |
Hee hee !
| me111993 wrote: | | could've very well meant that, however we had someother movement. |
AI aunta scratched his paunch ?
It's what passes off as productivity at that airline anyway !
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aeroblogger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| me111993 wrote: | | Tomorrow evening arrival in DEL seems to be pretty much finalized. |
Keep in mind that "tomorrow evening arrival in DEL" has been finalized 4 times so far
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me111993
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| aeroblogger wrote: | | me111993 wrote: | | Tomorrow evening arrival in DEL seems to be pretty much finalized. |
Keep in mind that "tomorrow evening arrival in DEL" has been finalized 4 times so far |
Well, atleast they've taken delivery.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/article3866565.ece
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luvleen
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:50 am Post subject: |
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me111993,
lets not celebrate the 'delivery' just yet.. i'll only believe this when i c the pics of the 787 in DEL/BOM.. there's many a slip between the cup and the lip.. And in AI's case this is even more true..
Ditto for the Australian routes |
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rajeev.jaya
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:06 am Post subject: |
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What will be the first route for this a/c
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vikramv2
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| rajeev.jaya wrote: | | What will be the first route for this a/c |
The first flights are expected to be proving flights on domestic sectors such as DEL-BOM. The first intl flights are expected to be Australia (SYD/MEL)
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sumantra
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| vikramv2 wrote: | | The first flights are expected to be proving flights on domestic sectors such as DEL-BOM. |
We haven't forgotten your promise 
Can we get a trip report from you, on the first trip by an AI.netter, on the AI 787? It may be quite some time till I am able to have an official trip to cover the AI 787 - my next planned Mumbai trip is way ahead, in December, with possibly one in January as well.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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vikramv2
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| sumantra wrote: | | vikramv2 wrote: | | The first flights are expected to be proving flights on domestic sectors such as DEL-BOM. |
We haven't forgotten your promise
Can we get a trip report from you, on the first trip by an AI.netter, on the AI 787? It may be quite some time till I am able to have an official trip to cover the AI 787 - my next planned Mumbai trip is way ahead, in December, with possibly one in January as well.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
For sure! I am only awaiting dates to be announced. I am gonna be on the first flight!
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jasepl
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| rajeev.jaya wrote: | | What will be the first route for this a/c |
No idea. I doubt Air India have a clue either.
One thing is for certain : Just like the 777s, these planes will be underutilised. And will spend more time prettying the Palam tarmac than flying (and, thereby, wasting even more taxpayer money). I suppose that's a good thing, in some twisted way.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | One thing is for certain : Just like the 777s, these planes will be underutilised. And will spend more time prettying the Palam tarmac than flying (and, thereby, wasting even more taxpayer money). I suppose that's a good thing, in some twisted way. |
And get ready for all of those "Planning to lease out three of these birds", "Air India contemplates sale of 787 fleet" announcements.
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jasepl
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | And get ready for all of those "Planning to lease out three of these birds", "Air India contemplates sale of 787 fleet" announcements. |
Not to forget : "Air India blames Prafull" and "Air India demands compensation (for their inability to use the aircraft for their intended purpose)."
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Devesh
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Follow the delivery flight AI170 http://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC170
Depart CHS 15:00 (00:30+1 IST)
Arrival FRA 04:39 CET (08:10 IST)
Depart FTA 06:15 (Working backwards from DEL arrival)
Arrive DEL 17:00
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jasepl
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't that the old Toronto flight number ?
And what's with the FRA stop ? AI's desperate attempt at shaking it's ass, in the hope that LH will get excited and take AI back ?
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | AI's desperate attempt at shaking it's ass, in the hope that LH will get excited and take AI back ? |
Maybe it is just some mantri or babu's family holidaying in Germany, who want a free lift back
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| rajeev.jaya wrote: | | What will be the first route for this a/c |
Supposedly, BOM-LHR according to some press reports. But only after it suns for a few months on the tarmac, and does a few domestic routes. |
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Devesh
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | And what's with the FRA stop ? AI's desperate attempt at shaking it's ass, in the hope that LH will get excited and take AI back ? |
I am told FRA is a technical i.e. re-fuelling stop. What is the range of the 788? Not sure how much cargo is the plane carrying. May be quite a bit, otherwise would it not be able to do CHS-DEL non-stop?
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Devesh
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: | | rajeev.jaya wrote: | | What will be the first route for this a/c |
Supposedly, BOM-LHR according to some press reports. But only after it suns for a few months on the tarmac, and does a few domestic routes. |
QR's 788 apparently has run in to some trouble. Gives AI the chance to be the first airline to operate a 787 in to LHR. That will really piss on Al Bakar's planned hype.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Devesh wrote: | | I am told FRA is a technical i.e. re-fuelling stop. What is the range of the 788? Not sure how much cargo is the plane carrying. May be quite a bit, otherwise would it not be able to do CHS-DEL non-stop? |
A 787-8 should be able to do CHS-DEL non-stop quite easily.
Aren't these delivery flights usually quite empty? I remember MH setting a distance record for their 772s from back in the day, flying SEA-KUL eastbound.
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jasepl
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Devesh wrote: | | jasepl wrote: | | And what's with the FRA stop ? AI's desperate attempt at shaking it's ass, in the hope that LH will get excited and take AI back ? |
I am told FRA is a technical i.e. re-fuelling stop. What is the range of the 788? Not sure how much cargo is the plane carrying. May be quite a bit, otherwise would it not be able to do CHS-DEL non-stop? |
It's meant to have the range, right? That's this plane's raison d'ętre : the ability to fly long distances (using less fuel). I don't know the exact distance between Charleston and Delhi, but it has got to be significantly less than the 15,000 ish range of the 787.
And why would a delivery flight be carrying cargo? Unless Mallya and Jayalalithaa-aah and other assorted fatcats from Dilly are all on board. Then yes, that would constitute cargo.
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VT-NYC
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| well its on it way. Finally!!!! |
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sammyk
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | Devesh wrote: | | jasepl wrote: | | And what's with the FRA stop ? AI's desperate attempt at shaking it's ass, in the hope that LH will get excited and take AI back ? |
I am told FRA is a technical i.e. re-fuelling stop. What is the range of the 788? Not sure how much cargo is the plane carrying. May be quite a bit, otherwise would it not be able to do CHS-DEL non-stop? |
It's meant to have the range, right? That's this plane's raison d'ętre : the ability to fly long distances (using less fuel). I don't know the exact distance between Charleston and Delhi, but it has got to be significantly less than the 15,000 ish range of the 787.
And why would a delivery flight be carrying cargo? Unless Mallya and Jayalalithaa-aah and other assorted fatcats from Dilly are all on board. Then yes, that would constitute cargo. |
Pretty common to carry cargo on delivery flights. |
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vikramv2
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me111993
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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if FRA is a tech stop, then why on earth choose FRA in the 1st place? There are atleast a thousand airports around FRA which are cheaper.
If they wanted an airport that already sees a 788 flight, then they should've gone in with DME.
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sammyk
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| me111993 wrote: | if FRA is a tech stop, then why on earth choose FRA in the 1st place? There are atleast a thousand airports around FRA which are cheaper.
If they wanted an airport that already sees a 788 flight, then they should've gone in with DME. |
Doesn't ANA operate the 787 to Frankfurt regularly? |
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me111993
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| sammyk wrote: | | me111993 wrote: | if FRA is a tech stop, then why on earth choose FRA in the 1st place? There are atleast a thousand airports around FRA which are cheaper.
If they wanted an airport that already sees a 788 flight, then they should've gone in with DME. |
Doesn't ANA operate the 787 to Frankfurt regularly? |
ya, thats my point, if they chose FRA because of the ANA 787, then they may just have gone in with DME.
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jbalonso777
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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As I write this post, AIC170 is slowly reaching its cruising altitude...
FINALLY its on its way! Everything looks on time! 
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vikramv2
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me111993
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Over Indian airspace now. has also begun decending.
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aeroblogger
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| me111993 wrote: | if FRA is a tech stop, then why on earth choose FRA in the 1st place? There are atleast a thousand airports around FRA which are cheaper.
If they wanted an airport that already sees a 788 flight, then they should've gone in with DME. |
The aircraft might be carrying cargo to be picked up/dropped off at FRA. Also, FRA has LH Technik, which would be able to provide support if there were any issues during the delivery flight.
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Aseem
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| aeroblogger wrote: | | me111993 wrote: | if FRA is a tech stop, then why on earth choose FRA in the 1st place? There are atleast a thousand airports around FRA which are cheaper.
If they wanted an airport that already sees a 788 flight, then they should've gone in with DME. |
The aircraft might be carrying cargo to be picked up/dropped off at FRA. Also, FRA has LH Technik, which would be able to provide support if there were any issues during the delivery flight. |
Also heard that there was crew change at stopover. So, the substitute crew is more easily available at FRA
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