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747-237 Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 11363 Location: Gordon Gekko's Boardroom
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:13 am Post subject: Centre hunts for replacement of PM’s VIP plane |
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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Centre-hunts-for-replacement-of-PMs-VIP-plane/articleshow/45029870.cms
Centre hunts for replacement of PM’s VIP plane
Nov 4, 2014
The government is in the process of finding a replacement to the over two-decade-old Boeing 747 Jumbo Jets of Air India that have been used for long distance VVIP flights. But before the successor to the original "queen of the skies" (B-747) is found, a panel of secretaries of top ministries like defence, finance, aviation, external affairs, home along with brass of the special protection group will this month meet to address two key issues — whether the new plane should be two-engine or four-engine and whether AI or Indian Air Force should be operating and maintaining the chariot of the sky.
"There is a huge price difference in the price of twin-engine and four-engine jets. So there is the obvious financial angle," said highly placed sources.
The IAF maintains and operates a fleet of Boeing Business Jets for use by top VVIPs like President, Vice-President and Prime Minister for flying within India and to neighbouring countries. "The secretaries will decide whether the new aircraft should be with AI or IAF. If they decide in favour of the IAF, then the defence establishment will decide the successor aircraft. Else, civil aviation authorities will take a technical call on which plane is best suited for the VVIPs," said the source.
The final decision will be taken by the highest echelons of the government. However given the long-distance requirement, the choice for both the defence and civil aviation authorities is going to be limited to the options from Boeing and Airbus.
The four-engine options from Boeing are the four-engine B-747 and two-engine B-777 and B-787. Incidentally, AI already has both the long range (LR) and extended range (ER) versions of the Boeing 777, apart from the constantly snag-ridden Dreamliners (787).
The B-777s had been inducted into AI's fleet after 2007, and the Dreamliners are brand new with many yet to be delivered to the airline. The B 777-300 ER and B-787 compare favourably to the fuel-guzzling B-777 200 LR. AI is, in fact, getting rid of the LRs as keeping it on ground is less loss-making than flying it due to its abysmally poor fuel efficiency.
Sources do not rule out the possibility of using AI's wide body Boeing planes as the next VVIP jet with certain changes as they are already in the fleet and do not have to be bought afresh. Even if the government decides in favour of IAF maintaining and operating the next VVIP Jet, the same can be transferred from AI to IAF, reducing the Maharaja's loan.
The other options are from Airbus — four-engine A-340 and two-engine A-330, apart from the under development A-350.
The current list price of Boeing's long range jets goes from Rs 2,282 crore for a brand new B-747-8 to Rs 1,352 crore for a B 787-8. Airbus long range jets' current list price goes from Rs 2,112 crore for A-350-1000 to Rs 1,375 crore for A-330-200. (Calculations at Rs 62 to a dollar).
"AI's old B-747s are still trustworthy. The only issue is that their old engine and body frame make them fuel guzzlers. The fuel efficiency of new planes is obviously much better. It is just like comparing a well-maintained old car with a new one that boats of latest technology, comfort along with fuel efficiency," said a source. _________________ 11000 posts (and counting) on Airliners-India.
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ssbmat Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Why should GOI bother about fuel usage for the dozen or so yearly trips that the PM's plane would make ?
Most important criterion should be reliability and maintainability. And some redundancy (2 vs 4). Especially if the plane is carrying any "sensitive " stuff like those "electronic briefcase" with the all-important "button".
Air Force has no experience in maintaining any of the new Boeing/Airbus products. Best left to AI engineering, which is better than the AI bean-counters by a long way. |
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Jeh Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 669 Location: Delhi, India
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Not that the Air Force will care for my suggestion, but I strongly believe the government should buy the remaining 3 LRs from Air India. It's a perfect number (I believe the US is also looking for 3 of whatever replacement they'll order for the VC-25) - plus they'll get them cheap, the cycles are low and with the typical VVIP flight payload they'll have the range to fly non-stop to practically any point on earth. And AI will get rid of an aircraft they are not capable of using properly - win-win?
PS: whatever AI says, the LR is not a fuel-guzzler. |
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abhijith16 Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2010 Posts: 1575 Location: DOH/IXE/MEL
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Jeh wrote: | Not that the Air Force will care for my suggestion, but I strongly believe the government should buy the remaining 3 LRs from Air India. It's a perfect number (I believe the US is also looking for 3 of whatever replacement they'll order for the VC-25) - plus they'll get them cheap, the cycles are low and with the typical VVIP flight payload they'll have the range to fly non-stop to practically any point on earth. And AI will get rid of an aircraft they are not capable of using properly - win-win?
PS: whatever AI says, the LR is not a fuel-guzzler. |
I second that. Better of purchasing those 77Ls from AI before they cannibalize another one of them. Helps with reducing fiscal deficit. _________________ <a><img></a> |
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747-237 Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 11363 Location: Gordon Gekko's Boardroom
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Jeh wrote: | Not that the Air Force will care for my suggestion, but I strongly believe the government should buy the remaining 3 LRs from Air India. It's a perfect number (I believe the US is also looking for 3 of whatever replacement they'll order for the VC-25) |
The basic requirements in the DoD document call for a four-engined aircraft as a replacement for the VC-25A. _________________ 11000 posts (and counting) on Airliners-India.
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Jeh Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 669 Location: Delhi, India
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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747-237 wrote: | Jeh wrote: | Not that the Air Force will care for my suggestion, but I strongly believe the government should buy the remaining 3 LRs from Air India. It's a perfect number (I believe the US is also looking for 3 of whatever replacement they'll order for the VC-25) |
The basic requirements in the DoD document call for a four-engined aircraft as a replacement for the VC-25A. |
I am aware of that, but I was just referring to the number of frames they required. I do hope India doesn't insist on a four-engined aircraft - Brazil has an A319, South Africa has a 737, Indonesia has a 737, Turkey has an A330, Australia has a 737, etc. so our peers barely seem to need a widebody, let alone a four-engined one. The 77L also uses one of the most reliable engines in aviation today, which contributes to its truly remarkable ETOPS rating. I just cannot see why four engines are required.
So let's hope India sees sense and joins the elite LR owners' club of Turkmenistan, Iraq and Equatorial Guinea |
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stealthpilot Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Centre hunts for replacement of PM’s VIP plane |
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wrote: | , a panel of secretaries of top ministries like defence, finance, aviation, external affairs, home along with brass of the special protection group will this month meet to address two key issues — whether the new plane should be two-engine or four-engine and whether AI or Indian Air Force should be operating and maintaining the chariot of the sky. |
Hahahahaha. Yea, a committee of top people need to decide.
ssbmat wrote: | Why should GOI bother about fuel usage for the dozen or so yearly trips that the PM's plane would make ? |
Agree with the first parts, not the later.
The Air Force maintains the 737s and ERJs, no reason they can't/shouldn't do the same for 747/340 or whatever.
747s are older apart from a status symbol I cant see why, 345s are cheap and available. 777 just ask AI.
I agree the AI 77L or 77W could be taken over. VVIP travel should be taken care of by a special unit of the armed forces, not Air India.
The 77L is kinda a fuel guzzler
747-237 wrote: | The basic requirements in the DoD document call for a four-engined aircraft as a replacement for the VC-25A. |
I can see the thinking in wanting 4 engines. Personally I believe it was a bigger concern in the past .... today not so much but whatevs I can understand that being debatable.
What I cant see as a viable option is to let AI maintain the VVIP fleet _________________ eP007 |
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Jaysit Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:19 am Post subject: |
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They want a modern 4-engined jet? Why? What's wrong with the 5-year old AI 77L/Ws? They're the flagship of many a major airline around the world and have one of the best safety records.
And if the French, German, Canadian, Aussie Head of States can fly twin-engined jetliners across the world, what's so special about India's leaders?
What a waste of even more money. |
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747-237 Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 11363 Location: Gordon Gekko's Boardroom
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Jaysit wrote: | They want a modern 4-engined jet? Why? |
No, it's the USAF that want a four-engined aircraft as a replacement for the VC-25A. The Indian Govt. haven't said that .... yet. _________________ 11000 posts (and counting) on Airliners-India.
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ssbmat Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Although I have made my comments, I guess every country has its special needs, all of which need not be made public. Why should the US Air Force One be a 4-enginer for that matter ? How is the US President any different from the Head of State of Germany, Australia, France ?
I guess I'll lay off this particular topic. UNLESS it requires further expert comments
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The_Goat Member
Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 3260 Location: South of France
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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The VC-25 is more than just a winged limo for the US president's personal use. It is a complete airborne command post, with full sensitive, military communication support. It is literally a White House in the air that is intended to stay airborne for days on end with mid-air refuelling in the event of a crisis. Four engined planes, where 75% of the power is still available in the event of an engine shutdown, are clearly a better option for such a role.
The AI 744s are clearly not kitted out to be any sort of a sensitive airborne command post with the Head of State in control. They are the same planes that AI uses for its labourer runs to Jeddah.
It would be an idea to hand over two of the 744s to the Comm Squad of the IAF for exclusive VIP use. They can also install classified equipment on board, like the VC-25 and convert them into an airborne GoI office. Given the amount of flying the President/PM do, fuel consumption should not be an issue.
The 77Ls should be either put to revenue service, or sold out. _________________ I don't know which is the more pampered bunch : AI's widebodies (the aunties) or Jet's widebodies (the planes).
-Jasepl |
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Jaysit Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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ssbmat wrote: | Although I have made my comments, I guess every country has its special needs, all of which need not be made public. Why should the US Air Force One be a 4-enginer for that matter ? How is the US President any different from the Head of State of Germany, Australia, France ?
I guess I'll lay off this particular topic. UNLESS it requires further expert comments
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I guess if you can't figure out why or how the US President is different from the Head of State of Germany, Australia, France (or for that matter, India), then someone needs to burst your bubble.
Oh, and buying an unaffordable $500 million jet will not suddenly vault India into the status of an economic or military superpower any time soon. It may make the usual suspects thump their chests and pretend that's the case, but no one's going to be convinced now, or any time soon. |
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ssbmat Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I guess if you can't figure out why or how the US President is different from the Head of State of Germany, Australia, France (or for that matter, India), then someone needs to burst your bubble. |
I knew it ! Had to be either @Jaysit or @Bala.
Americans always have to be these Hollywood style, blue/grey suits and earplugs blurting out gobbledegook commands while peering over monitors, prepared to engage the ënemy and defend the free world!!
No one is about to start WW-3. And the presidency of any state is bigger than the president himself. So, really, the US President isnt any different from any one in the world. They all make huge mistakes. And governments continue. |
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Jaysit Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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ssbmat wrote: | Quote: | I guess if you can't figure out why or how the US President is different from the Head of State of Germany, Australia, France (or for that matter, India), then someone needs to burst your bubble. |
I knew it ! Had to be either @Jaysit or @Bala.
Americans always have to be these Hollywood style, blue/grey suits and earplugs blurting out gobbledegook commands while peering over monitors, prepared to engage the ënemy and defend the free world!!
No one is about to start WW-3. And the presidency of any state is bigger than the president himself. So, really, the US President isnt any different from any one in the world. They all make huge mistakes. And governments continue. |
Put aside your bad Hollywood DVDs and rejoin the real world. |
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747-237 Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 11363 Location: Gordon Gekko's Boardroom
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:12 am Post subject: |
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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-wants-govt-to-quickly-finalize-next-VVIP-aircraft/articleshow/45379984.cms
Air India wants govt to quickly finalize next VVIP aircraft
Dec 5, 2014
Air India has asked the inter-ministerial group (IMG) set up to find a replacement to the almost 25-year-old Boeing 747s used to fly the president and prime minister as AI One to expeditiously reach a conclusion. The airline, which had earlier proposed Boeing 777-300 extended range (ER) as a possible successor to the Jumbo Jet, is supposed to take a decision on three B-777s that it is supposed to shortly take delivery of from the US major.
Sources say unless the IMG decides in favor of the B-777 300 ER as the next long haul VVIP aircraft, AI will not take these planes. Instead, the airline will convert this order to the shorter range Boeing 737s or medium range 787 Dreamliners which will be commercially more beneficial to the airline than the long haul plane which can fly nonstop to America.
"The old Boeing 747s being used today for long international flights by the PM are perfectly safe to fly but due to their advanced age, they are fuel guzzlers. Also, they can't fly nonstop to distant places like the Americas. During the 10-year-long Manmohan Singh's prime ministerial period, the one-stop flight to distant destinations worked well as the then PM was more comfortable with a break on a long journeys. PM Modi, on the other hand, is extremely energetic and can do long journeys nonstop without any visible fatigue. So, the IMG has to now decide which plane to pick," said a highly placed source.
A panel of secretaries of top ministries like defence, finance, aviation, external affairs, home along with brass of the special protection group is currently deliberating whether the successor to the original queen of the skies, the B-747 Jumbo Jet, should be twin engine or four engine aircraft. And whether, the plane should be operated and maintained by AI or Indian Air Force.
Till some time back, AI was proposing the B-777 300 ER as the successor to the Jumbo Jets. But it has now told the IMG that the technical reliability of a twin engine plane like the B-777 versus a four-engine one like the 747 can be compared by the directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA). AI is now awaiting a decision from the IMG so that it can accordingly decide on the delivery of the three B-777s.
The engine choice is being considered from security angle. The directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA) will provide the technical data to showcase the reliability and safety of both twin-engine and four-engine aircraft.
Indian Air Force maintains and operates a fleet of Boeing Business Jets for use by top VVIPs like President, Vice-President and Prime Minister for flying within India and to neighboring countries. "The government will decide whether the new aircraft should be with AI or IAF. If they decide in favor of the IAF, then the defence establishment will decide the successor aircraft. Else, civil aviation authorities will take a technical call on which plane is best suited for the VVIPs," said the source. _________________ 11000 posts (and counting) on Airliners-India.
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Jeh Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 669 Location: Delhi, India
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: |
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747-237 wrote: | http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-wants-govt-to-quickly-finalize-next-VVIP-aircraft/articleshow/45379984.cms
Air India wants govt to quickly finalize next VVIP aircraft
Dec 5, 2014
Air India has asked the inter-ministerial group (IMG) set up to find a replacement to the almost 25-year-old Boeing 747s used to fly the president and prime minister as AI One to expeditiously reach a conclusion. The airline, which had earlier proposed Boeing 777-300 extended range (ER) as a possible successor to the Jumbo Jet, is supposed to take a decision on three B-777s that it is supposed to shortly take delivery of from the US major.
Sources say unless the IMG decides in favor of the B-777 300 ER as the next long haul VVIP aircraft, AI will not take these planes. Instead, the airline will convert this order to the shorter range Boeing 737s or medium range 787 Dreamliners which will be commercially more beneficial to the airline than the long haul plane which can fly nonstop to America.
"The old Boeing 747s being used today for long international flights by the PM are perfectly safe to fly but due to their advanced age, they are fuel guzzlers. Also, they can't fly nonstop to distant places like the Americas. During the 10-year-long Manmohan Singh's prime ministerial period, the one-stop flight to distant destinations worked well as the then PM was more comfortable with a break on a long journeys. PM Modi, on the other hand, is extremely energetic and can do long journeys nonstop without any visible fatigue. So, the IMG has to now decide which plane to pick," said a highly placed source.
A panel of secretaries of top ministries like defence, finance, aviation, external affairs, home along with brass of the special protection group is currently deliberating whether the successor to the original queen of the skies, the B-747 Jumbo Jet, should be twin engine or four engine aircraft. And whether, the plane should be operated and maintained by AI or Indian Air Force.
Till some time back, AI was proposing the B-777 300 ER as the successor to the Jumbo Jets. But it has now told the IMG that the technical reliability of a twin engine plane like the B-777 versus a four-engine one like the 747 can be compared by the directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA). AI is now awaiting a decision from the IMG so that it can accordingly decide on the delivery of the three B-777s.
The engine choice is being considered from security angle. The directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA) will provide the technical data to showcase the reliability and safety of both twin-engine and four-engine aircraft.
Indian Air Force maintains and operates a fleet of Boeing Business Jets for use by top VVIPs like President, Vice-President and Prime Minister for flying within India and to neighboring countries. "The government will decide whether the new aircraft should be with AI or IAF. If they decide in favor of the IAF, then the defence establishment will decide the successor aircraft. Else, civil aviation authorities will take a technical call on which plane is best suited for the VVIPs," said the source. |
I wish AI would issue some sort of internal directive banning their spokespersons or 'sources' from using the phrase 'fuel guzzler'. I feel like breaking something every time I read it
And I still think the LR is the perfect aircraft for the job (and the job of running and maintaining it should be handed to the IAF, not AI), and AI has just the right number of them left, with very few cycles. It'd certainly be far cheaper than purchasing three new 77Ws.
Perhaps one reason the PMO is sitting on the decision is that they know any new fleet will attract bad PR - I'd imagine the Opposition will shout about the PM's billion-dollar gift to himself etc. (again, transferring the aircraft from AI could be done quietly). I suppose the PM would usually prefer to place the order for his successor, as Reagan ordered the VC-25A, eventually delivered during Bush's tenure, but Modi's aiming for at least another nine years in office, so that seems unlikely. By then, only Iran Air will be able to maintain the 744s!
Fun fact - the estimated construction cost of that Shivaji-on-Sea madness nears the list price of two 77Ws. Throw in the Patel-on-Narmada madness and the total cost would dwarf the list price of three plus interiors, security features and other customisation. |
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