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747-237

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Centre-hunts-for-replacement-of-PMs-VIP-plane/articleshow/45029870.cms

Centre hunts for replacement of PM’s VIP plane

Nov 4, 2014

The government is in the process of finding a replacement to the over two-decade-old Boeing 747 Jumbo Jets of Air India that have been used for long distance VVIP flights. But before the successor to the original "queen of the skies" (B-747) is found, a panel of secretaries of top ministries like defence, finance, aviation, external affairs, home along with brass of the special protection group will this month meet to address two key issues — whether the new plane should be two-engine or four-engine and whether AI or Indian Air Force should be operating and maintaining the chariot of the sky.

"There is a huge price difference in the price of twin-engine and four-engine jets. So there is the obvious financial angle," said highly placed sources.

The IAF maintains and operates a fleet of Boeing Business Jets for use by top VVIPs like President, Vice-President and Prime Minister for flying within India and to neighbouring countries. "The secretaries will decide whether the new aircraft should be with AI or IAF. If they decide in favour of the IAF, then the defence establishment will decide the successor aircraft. Else, civil aviation authorities will take a technical call on which plane is best suited for the VVIPs," said the source.

The final decision will be taken by the highest echelons of the government. However given the long-distance requirement, the choice for both the defence and civil aviation authorities is going to be limited to the options from Boeing and Airbus.

The four-engine options from Boeing are the four-engine B-747 and two-engine B-777 and B-787. Incidentally, AI already has both the long range (LR) and extended range (ER) versions of the Boeing 777, apart from the constantly snag-ridden Dreamliners (787).

The B-777s had been inducted into AI's fleet after 2007, and the Dreamliners are brand new with many yet to be delivered to the airline. The B 777-300 ER and B-787 compare favourably to the fuel-guzzling B-777 200 LR. AI is, in fact, getting rid of the LRs as keeping it on ground is less loss-making than flying it due to its abysmally poor fuel efficiency.

Sources do not rule out the possibility of using AI's wide body Boeing planes as the next VVIP jet with certain changes as they are already in the fleet and do not have to be bought afresh. Even if the government decides in favour of IAF maintaining and operating the next VVIP Jet, the same can be transferred from AI to IAF, reducing the Maharaja's loan.

The other options are from Airbus — four-engine A-340 and two-engine A-330, apart from the under development A-350.

The current list price of Boeing's long range jets goes from Rs 2,282 crore for a brand new B-747-8 to Rs 1,352 crore for a B 787-8. Airbus long range jets' current list price goes from Rs 2,112 crore for A-350-1000 to Rs 1,375 crore for A-330-200. (Calculations at Rs 62 to a dollar).

"AI's old B-747s are still trustworthy. The only issue is that their old engine and body frame make them fuel guzzlers. The fuel efficiency of new planes is obviously much better. It is just like comparing a well-maintained old car with a new one that boats of latest technology, comfort along with fuel efficiency," said a source.
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ssbmat · Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710

Why should GOI bother about fuel usage for the dozen or so yearly trips that the PM's plane would make ?
Most important criterion should be reliability and maintainability. And some redundancy (2 vs 4). Especially if the plane is carrying any "sensitive " stuff like those "electronic briefcase" with the all-important "button".
Air Force has no experience in maintaining any of the new Boeing/Airbus products. Best left to AI engineering, which is better than the AI bean-counters by a long way.

Jeh · Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:29 am Post subject:

Not that the Air Force will care for my suggestion, but I strongly believe the government should buy the remaining 3 LRs from Air India. It's a perfect number (I believe the US is also looking for 3 of whatever replacement they'll order for the VC-25) - plus they'll get them cheap, the cycles are low and with the typical VVIP flight payload they'll have the range to fly non-stop to practically any point on earth. And AI will get rid of an aircraft they are not capable of using properly - win-win?

PS: whatever AI says, the LR is not a fuel-guzzler.

abhijith16 · Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am Post subject:

747-237 · Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject:

Jeh · Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject:

stealthpilot · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

They want a modern 4-engined jet? Why? What's wrong with the 5-year old AI 77L/Ws? They're the flagship of many a major airline around the world and have one of the best safety records.

And if the French, German, Canadian, Aussie Head of States can fly twin-engined jetliners across the world, what's so special about India's leaders?

What a waste of even more money.

747-237 · Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:18 am Post subject:

ssbmat · Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710

Although I have made my comments, I guess every country has its special needs, all of which need not be made public. Why should the US Air Force One be a 4-enginer for that matter ? How is the US President any different from the Head of State of Germany, Australia, France ?

I guess I'll lay off this particular topic. UNLESS it requires further expert comments

Shocked

The_Goat · Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject:

The VC-25 is more than just a winged limo for the US president's personal use. It is a complete airborne command post, with full sensitive, military communication support. It is literally a White House in the air that is intended to stay airborne for days on end with mid-air refuelling in the event of a crisis. Four engined planes, where 75% of the power is still available in the event of an engine shutdown, are clearly a better option for such a role.

The AI 744s are clearly not kitted out to be any sort of a sensitive airborne command post with the Head of State in control. They are the same planes that AI uses for its labourer runs to Jeddah.

It would be an idea to hand over two of the 744s to the Comm Squad of the IAF for exclusive VIP use. They can also install classified equipment on board, like the VC-25 and convert them into an airborne GoI office. Given the amount of flying the President/PM do, fuel consumption should not be an issue.

The 77Ls should be either put to revenue service, or sold out.
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I don't know which is the more pampered bunch : AI's widebodies (the aunties) or Jet's widebodies (the planes).
-Jasepl

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

ssbmat · Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

747-237 · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:12 am Post subject:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-wants-govt-to-quickly-finalize-next-VVIP-aircraft/articleshow/45379984.cms

Air India wants govt to quickly finalize next VVIP aircraft

Dec 5, 2014

Air India has asked the inter-ministerial group (IMG) set up to find a replacement to the almost 25-year-old Boeing 747s used to fly the president and prime minister as AI One to expeditiously reach a conclusion. The airline, which had earlier proposed Boeing 777-300 extended range (ER) as a possible successor to the Jumbo Jet, is supposed to take a decision on three B-777s that it is supposed to shortly take delivery of from the US major.

Sources say unless the IMG decides in favor of the B-777 300 ER as the next long haul VVIP aircraft, AI will not take these planes. Instead, the airline will convert this order to the shorter range Boeing 737s or medium range 787 Dreamliners which will be commercially more beneficial to the airline than the long haul plane which can fly nonstop to America.

"The old Boeing 747s being used today for long international flights by the PM are perfectly safe to fly but due to their advanced age, they are fuel guzzlers. Also, they can't fly nonstop to distant places like the Americas. During the 10-year-long Manmohan Singh's prime ministerial period, the one-stop flight to distant destinations worked well as the then PM was more comfortable with a break on a long journeys. PM Modi, on the other hand, is extremely energetic and can do long journeys nonstop without any visible fatigue. So, the IMG has to now decide which plane to pick," said a highly placed source.

A panel of secretaries of top ministries like defence, finance, aviation, external affairs, home along with brass of the special protection group is currently deliberating whether the successor to the original queen of the skies, the B-747 Jumbo Jet, should be twin engine or four engine aircraft. And whether, the plane should be operated and maintained by AI or Indian Air Force.

Till some time back, AI was proposing the B-777 300 ER as the successor to the Jumbo Jets. But it has now told the IMG that the technical reliability of a twin engine plane like the B-777 versus a four-engine one like the 747 can be compared by the directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA). AI is now awaiting a decision from the IMG so that it can accordingly decide on the delivery of the three B-777s.

The engine choice is being considered from security angle. The directorate general of civil aviation (DGCA) will provide the technical data to showcase the reliability and safety of both twin-engine and four-engine aircraft.

Indian Air Force maintains and operates a fleet of Boeing Business Jets for use by top VVIPs like President, Vice-President and Prime Minister for flying within India and to neighboring countries. "The government will decide whether the new aircraft should be with AI or IAF. If they decide in favor of the IAF, then the defence establishment will decide the successor aircraft. Else, civil aviation authorities will take a technical call on which plane is best suited for the VVIPs," said the source.
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Jeh · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: