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sunny84 · Member Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posts: 157 Location: Gurgaon

http://avindia.blogspot.com/search/label/Jet%20Airways%20Oct%202009?max-results=150

airbus340 · Member Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 465

This case has been on trial for some time and i am glad VS have won .

The whole herringbone design was introduced by them and however good 9W might be but u just cant copy someones design and call it your own .

At the end of the day the Lush Purple Upper Class Seat on VS is no comparison to the crappy beige cheap imitation that 9W have made out of it .

Only if serving Dom Perignon in Business Class will bring you upto VS standard ...... Alas Mr Goyal ...... dont think its working ......

avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

airbus340 · Member Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 465

Well lets see who survives the test of time .

Its stupid to loose money and still have a daily flight from BOM to LHR .

Sir Richard Branson is not solely moved by passion . It was a very sound business decision . He probably is the best business man to leave the market where everyone is bleeding so badly and trust me , he will be back once the route is more economically viable .

And as far as DEL - LHR is concerned ...... VS is doing well..... much better than 9W who sell a through fare from LHR all the way to DAC or KTM for the same price as a LHR - DEL fare .

9W in the UK is looked at a better substitute to AI . Thats the stark reality .
No one in the UK knows 9W apart from the diaspora community .

Trust me buddy for the gazillions of tourists who travel from the UK to India , its pretty much VS or BA . Not Mr Goyals 9W which brand wise is limited to the travel agents in Southall and Hounslow .

avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

airbus340 · Member Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 465

VS have never looked for Domination on any route .

Its a niche airline which is a solid competitor to BA , however is nowhere close to BA in comparison in size .

9W has a huge domestic network in India which VS don't and the same is the case for BA in the UK .

However considering all of the above VS still pull off a great show wherever they fly to .

The planes are full , fares comparable to any other airline and doing well .

If VS is bleeding so is everyone else .

If 9W has corporate contracts so does VS and am sure so does BA .

Holistically i think 9W and BA are in a bigger mess than VS . With 777 parked from Marana to BOM and DEL airport doing NOTHING . 9W has a lot on its plate and so does BA .

avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

[quote="airbus340"However considering all of the above VS still pull off a great show wherever they fly to .

The planes are full , fares comparable to any other airline and doing well .

If VS is bleeding so is everyone else .

If 9W has corporate contracts so does VS and am sure so does BA .

Holistically i think 9W and BA are in a bigger mess than VS . With 777 parked from Marana to BOM and DEL airport doing NOTHING . 9W has a lot on its plate and so does BA .[/quote]

"I'm sure BA has" and all this speculative trash does not hold any value. There are a list of companies which have tie ups with BA and 9W w.r.t India - UK operations. VS does not have a SINGLE corporate contract in India. But still given the tough times, 9W and VS are actually cooperating on BOM - LHR through code shares and that is a wise decision on both sides.

Virgin has flights full to selected destinations and so does 9W. Every airline has their stronghold.

me111993 · Member Joined: 04 Sep 2009 Posts: 3225 Location: MAA/AMD

How conviniently do you answer airbus a340!!! I'll let the facts do the talking here, once 9w started operating their 77w's on BOM-LHR, VS really started feeling the pressure, even though 9w initially took most of Bmi's traffic on their afternoon flight, VS struggled with loads and ended up eventually withdrawing BOM-LHR. Almost the same thing happened with DEL, while 9w upgraded all its DEL-LHR flights to a B77w, VS downgraded to an A340. What does this suggest to you?? VS runs away from competition because their products aren't as good as others...
Also before you give opinions on 9w's inflight product, please consider the fact that, 9w's J or their premiere' is a proper Jcl segment, while VS's upper class is in between F and J much like IT's First class...
Avbuff rightly stated that the problem with the seats being patented, was still the manufacturer's and not the airlines.
Even if the case goes ahead, it will take years before your 30 fleeted VS takes on or harms in any way the likes of CX, AC, DL and of course 9w...
Later
me111993

airbus340 · Member Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 465

I personally feel its better to have a smaller 340-300 to fill up in todays bleeding India Uk market than a 777 .

9W's 777 have a 8/30/274 config whereas VS 340 has 34 in J , 35 in W ( premium Economy ) and 171 in Y .

9W have to fill up those 100 + Y seats on heavily discounted Y fares which do not make sense . They have a 777 on the DEL - LHR leg as they have so many to spare they dont know what to do with them .

VS on the other hand have 34 J class seats on a Smaller 343 and that makes more sense as its the seats in J class that make profit for airlines .

Every foreign airline has made capacity reductions to India as there is too much capacity .

Its not brave to put a 777 on a route and bleed but it is smarter business sense to have a 343 on a route .

Between VS's 340-300 and 340-600 there is a difference of 54 extra Y class seats , only 3 more seats on W and 11 more in J class .

I personally think the 340-300 is just apt for this route in todays trading climate . And the 340-600 is back to DEL in the summer 2010 schedule .

me111993 · Member Joined: 04 Sep 2009 Posts: 3225 Location: MAA/AMD

9w has loads of above 83% on their UK & USA routes.The loads are constantly improving, and AI has also increased capacity to LHR. VS is the only one to reduce capacity. Once IT gets clearence to fly DEL-LHR VS would completely out of the picture just like BOM.
And FYI DEL/BOM-LHR is now profitable for 9w. Can you give me VS's loads on DEL-LHR??

airbus340 · Member Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 465

Sir , an 83% load factor does not mean you are necessarily making money .

I am sure your learned self knows that you can have a flight full however still not make money . Seats need to be sold at a certain price to make money .

As far as making money goes , 9W has been flying to LHR for a few years and am sure they make money now as they have recovered the initial setup costs .

VS have been flying to DEL for almost 10 years now so understandibly they have recovered these cost already .

Loads on both VS and 9W are comparable with VS taking a fair share of Business travel from UK and 9W obviously having a fair share of business class seats filling up from India .

I personally dont work for VS but a friend of mine does and flights have been constantly full for the last 2 months .

He explains the capacity downgrade and it makes sense and i have xplained that in my prior post . Its logical .

avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

@airbus340

As I once again say your points are baseless to the core, as you just don't to get in terms with reality. Even with 83% load factors you still keep whining that 9W is bleeding with the B77Ws and all that non sense. Any number greater than 75% on loads is almost a sure shot indicator of a route making some money. VS does not have loads even touching 60% throughout the year.

When VS cuts capacity you think it is a smart decision and when 9W are shuffling capacity you go berserk saying that they are a useless airline. VS too has to fill up their Y class with equally heavily discounted fares as much as 9W and as much as any other airline operating on LHR routes.

Secondly the CASM on the B77W is MUCH less than the A340 versions. So in order to cover the operating costs of that flight VS has to fill more seats than an airline with the B777s. And given VS is an equally loss making venture who are losing money hand over fist on many of their routes, it is best not to get on comparative note.

That logic of 9W has to fill 100+ Y seats on discounted tickets and all that is does not hold true in any case and they are completely false.

me111993 · Member Joined: 04 Sep 2009 Posts: 3225 Location: MAA/AMD

Well it's a quote unqoute job for me...

airbus340 · Member Joined: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 465

@avbuff......
i am not too sure where you get that 65% year round figure for VS on the DEL-LHR route .

If that is the case then you should probably advice Mr Branson to shut shop altogether cause according to your honourable self thats just not good enough .
They must be doing something right to fly planes half way across the world or maybe VS love flying to destinations that don't make money ....

avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

The place where I worked in summers gave me more than enough information and access to passenger numbers and load factors and the cargo volume, which is why I'm extremely confident about my arguments and that I have all the facts to prove them right. And what you repeatedly claimed since post #1, it is completely false.

I had told you earlier as well that on the BOM - LHR route, if at all someone will quit it will be Virgin Atlantic because of their business model, and it did hold true. I never said that Virgin Atlantic to shut down but the fact is that they are in a hopeless position ont he DEL - LHR sector, and 9W are in a much better position than they are on their LHR routes.

Basically if airlines were to stop flying loss making routes, 90% of the industry would be shutting down. SRB is no aviation giant or someone to keep as a benchmark. Airlines like Southwest, Singapore Airlines, are airlines to be looked up to.

Phadnis · Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject:

avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

Note that VS is not sueing 9W, DL, AC or CX. It has sued Contour who made those seats and who then sold them to other airlines. Virgin can seek an injunction to stop Contour from selling any more of those seats to any other airline. I doubt very much if it can force the other carriers to strip the seats from their aircraft if British patent law has within it a theory of reliance and prior use. However, even if it does, the parties would have to litigate, and I suspect that 9W, CX, etc. would rather just negotiate out of court.

Btw, here is the UK Court of Appeal decision for those of you who care to read it. It's written in patent-ese.

http://alpha.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/1062.html

I've flown Virgin's Business Class three times over the past 5 years and other than the herringbone seat (which I love) and the bar, their inflight service has gone rapidly downhill (it used to be fantastic). The crew don't seem to care anymore, and the food is basically "pub grub" (fine for terra firma after an evening of drinking, but pretty ghastly at 35,000 feet). I much prefer BA's crisp service, not to mention its Club World seat. I've only seen 9W's beige version of the herringbone design in pictures, but it appears to be very soothing and well-upholstered, and in keeping with their objective to pursue SQ as a role model. Personally, I prefer it over VS's cabin which is very vavavoom fantastic at first, but then gets to be a bit over-the-top after 6 hours in the air (it's still a lot more attractive than the "Rajdhani train" blue AC or DL have in their 777s). VS' service in economy, however, has become abysmal. Plus, it provides the worst pitch of any seat I've encountered.

Of course, these are all subjective and personal opinions (except for the last one - their seat pitch in Y really is the worst, although I'm sure there are LCCs and UK charter carriers that are worse).

Also, I don't know where some people are assuming that Jet is losing money on its LHR routes. Those routes are showing 85% load factors, with very high load factors in J. In fact, Jet's entire international operations made a pre-tax loss of only US $8 million last year. If the pilot's strike hadn't occurred and if Jet hadn't launched brand new routes, these losses would be even smaller or non-existent. As an aside, many World Bank and IMF folks who used to swear by BA when traveling to India for work, are now swearing by 9W. They take UA to LHR, and connect to 9Ws 777s to BOM or DEL. It doesn't bode well for AI's new daily 77L flights, but then that's another story.