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me111993
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 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:06 pm Post subject: UK Aviation Authority may Ground IGI over Security |
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New Delhi: Upset with “several deficiencies” at New Delhi’s Indira Gandhi International Airport (IGI), the British aviation security authorities have threatened to revoke the transhipment security exemption for air carriers operating between New Delhi and the UK.
Apart from domestic carriers Jet Airways, Kingfisher Airlines and Air India, the UK’s flag carrier British Airways and Virgin Atlantic connect the national capital with London.
Industry sources told FE that Transec, the British aviation security authority equivalent to Bureau of Civil aviation Security (BCAS) of India, has set a June 14 deadline to the airport operator to comply with its security standards.
Senior officials of the UK’s department of transport (DFT) had visited the cargo area of the Delhi airport a few weeks ago and found various loopholes in the screening process of the freight meant for export.
Confirming the development, a Delhi International Airport Ltd (DIAL) official said the issue was being addressed
http://avindia.blogspot.com/2010/06/uk-aviation-authority-may-ground-igi.html
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Kabir
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| what exactly are Transec's security standards? |
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:21 am Post subject: |
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How come we never hear of Indian authorities taking ANY sort of punitive actions against aviation (or other) authorities from Western countries?
Do we even inspect the FAA, CAA (UK) or other activities on a reciprocal basis ? Or are we so full of servitude that we bend over and open our trousers any time these people criticize ? Are we not as apprehensive about security at their airports or we assume that it is always better ?
I dont think that is the case. |
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vt-ala
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | ssbmat
Do we even inspect the FAA, CAA (UK) or other activities on a reciprocal basis ? Or are we so full of servitude that we bend over and open our trousers any time these people criticize ? Are we not as apprehensive about security at their airports or we assume that it is always better ?
I dont think that is the case. |
Isn't this how it has been always? Even for aircraft, if it is FAA and EASA certified, it's good enough the fly anywhere in the world right? Or does DGCA separately certify aircraft to fly in India?
For example, will the 787 have to pass separate tests before it is allowed to fly in India? |
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rdr
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:17 am Post subject: |
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as a neutral observer, i would like to comment on this thread. firstly, Del is not India, just as Lon is not the UK.
airport operations in Del are the most pathetic i have seen for any capital city. they are light years behind Bom in everyway, esp efficiency, attitude, ATC, operations....etc. my opinion is that its simply due to the local culture where everyone knows the PM, or someone or another, and feels that the whole world owes him a living. there has not been a single time that i have been to Del without some idiotic thing or another taking place, thanks mainly to the AAI, or CIQ, or ATC........
the defiencies in Del are as bad as Gatwick, Manchester, and other cities in the UK. in many areas, Bom far surpasses Lon with a hard working culture, determined to excel and do a good job.
airport security is an area which is non-negotiable in the present times, hence we have the whip being cracked. and no amount of connections will help. in other countries they dont wait for Mangalores before taking action.
a brand new and lovely airport has been built in Del. but then anyone can build something, its running it that matters. wait for the fun to emerge when it opens. |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| ssbmat wrote: | How come we never hear of Indian authorities taking ANY sort of punitive actions against aviation (or other) authorities from Western countries?
Do we even inspect the FAA, CAA (UK) or other activities on a reciprocal basis ? Or are we so full of servitude that we bend over and open our trousers any time these people criticize ? Are we not as apprehensive about security at their airports or we assume that it is always better ?
I dont think that is the case. |
I think it has more to do with the cluelessness and unwillingness of our officialdom than with servitude. Nothing prevents our agencies from making demands or setting our own standards; they just simply choose not to do it.
Remember a few years ago, when suddenly all cars sold in India had to comply with Euro II emission norms? That requirement had nothing to do with Europe. Someone in Dilly decided, “Why apply our own minds, when someone else is already doing it?”
This attitude permeates all sections of Indian officialdom, whether it is the bureaucracy or the private sector.
More often than not, when the babus do apply their own minds, and have an original thought that is put into action, the result is pointless nonsense.
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vivekman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | More often than not, when the babus do apply their own minds, and have an original thought that is put into action, the result is pointless nonsense. |
Precisely! And that is why it makes sense to adopt a global best practice (e.g. the Euro emission standards or the FAA/EASA norms) rather than spending time & public money in creating something useless. For areas where the West has experience, expertise & a headstart, it makes sense to adopt to an existing standard.
Imagine if the babus were to create a safety standard of their own! Just think of the number of committees and "working" (haha) groups that will have to be created just to set things in motion.
For areas where we have expertise in, or for national security issues, indigenisation is the way to go.
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vt-ala
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | rdr
airport operations in Del are the most pathetic i have seen for any capital city. they are light years behind Bom in everyway, esp efficiency, attitude, ATC, operations....etc. |
And Sir, would you like to substantiate this statement please? Or are you another one of those armchair experts that abound this forum? |
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ssbmat wrote: | | How come we never hear of Indian authorities taking ANY sort of punitive actions against aviation (or other) authorities from Western countries? |
Coz' Indians have an inferiority complex when they are put next to the 'whites'. Indians revere anything that the West does and do not question it. They never seem to learn when they don't get the same treatment in return. 
Of course, the fact that it's the babus who head such machinery doesn't help matters. At least the private sector has some class in our country.
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | ssbmat wrote: | | How come we never hear of Indian authorities taking ANY sort of punitive actions against aviation (or other) authorities from Western countries? |
Coz' Indians have an inferiority complex when they are put next to the 'whites'. Indians revere anything that the West does and do not question it. They never seem to learn when they don't get the same treatment in return.
Of course, the fact that it's the babus who head such machinery doesn't help matters. At least the private sector has some class in our country. |
Please. It's because Indian regulatory agencies (and I've dealt with many of them) are either clueless, corrupt, inept, or prone to absurd demands that have nothing to do with the realities on the ground, i.e., bureaucracy for the sake of it, or because some babu decides that he will impose requirements above and beyond what is required in advanced countries just to prove some misguided sense of being "even more advanced." Also, India isn't an R&D or manufacturing powerhouse for it to be able to set standards. It has nothing to do with perceived inferiority complexes or other prickly sentiments. |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| vt-ala wrote: | | Quote: | rdr
airport operations in Del are the most pathetic i have seen for any capital city. they are light years behind Bom in everyway, esp efficiency, attitude, ATC, operations....etc. |
And Sir, would you like to substantiate this statement please? Or are you another one of those armchair experts that abound this forum? |
I don't know about the DEL vs. BOM debate that rdr is talking about - but it's definitely alarming that the "British aviation security authorities" are talking about taking punitive measures due to security loopholes at DIAL. Can you shed some light on this issue raised by the "British aviation security authorities"? And given the quoted articles says DIAL has confirmed the issue is being addressed, it does not seem too much like "arm chair" expertise in general (which supposedly abounds on this forum  ), but that there are serious issues at the cargo side of DIAL.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: | | impose requirements above and beyond what is required in advanced countries just to prove some misguided sense of being "even more advanced." |
So does that mean set no standards at all? Sit down, face all the music you get from the FAA, Heathrow, and whatnot and not flex your own muscles and point out deficiencies the rest of the world may have? After all, it's not that the 194 countries minus India are running squeaky clean are they?
Sticking to aviation, take for instance Bangladeshi or Afghanistani carriers operating scrap metal to India. Has the DGCA ever thought of the risks and dangers such carriers pose to the environment/safety/security?
| Jaysit wrote: | | Also, India isn't an R&D or manufacturing powerhouse for it to be able to set standards. It has nothing to do with perceived inferiority complexes or other prickly sentiments. |
Maybe it isn't a manufacturing powerhouse but it isn't a cluster of villages either. There are 1.2 billion people in this country and 63 years past independence we are yet to get out of that colonial mindset and act like a growing superpower. India is the soft-spoken joke of the BRIC pack.
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jasepl
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | Jaysit wrote: | | impose requirements above and beyond what is required in advanced countries just to prove some misguided sense of being "even more advanced." |
So does that mean set no standards at all? Sit down, face all the music you get from the FAA, Heathrow, and whatnot and not flex your own muscles and point out deficiencies the rest of the world may have? After all, it's not that the 194 countries minus India are running squeaky clean are they?
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Absolutely. However, one must be capable of identifying flaws in the first place, before being able to point them out. As things stand, India is a nobody in that regard.
Hell, in most things with global ramifications... What exactly has India's contribution to the world been in modern times?
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rdr
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: |
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todays news says it all, and i dont know whether to laugh or cry.
no background checks are reqd for temporary airport passes issued at the airports for general workers, undoing all the hard work the BCAS & CISF had initiated.
its the fools elected who have no clue when they take up office.
security is not a game, you will have many people out of work if the
airliners flying out of India are banned due to a system which conforms to Indian standards, and not the ICAO ones. |
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| vt-ala wrote: | | Quote: | ssbmat
Do we even inspect the FAA, CAA (UK) or other activities on a reciprocal basis ? Or are we so full of servitude that we bend over and open our trousers any time these people criticize ? Are we not as apprehensive about security at their airports or we assume that it is always better ?
I dont think that is the case. |
Isn't this how it has been always? Even for aircraft, if it is FAA and EASA certified, it's good enough the fly anywhere in the world right? Or does DGCA separately certify aircraft to fly in India?
For example, will the 787 have to pass separate tests before it is allowed to fly in India? |
Well, the DGCA certainly certifies the aircraft as fit for use by the operator/airline. If the DGCA encounters certain deficiencies in the aircraft design or operating procedures, it should send notice or recommendations. If there were some security incidents at UK/Europe airports, shouldnt DGCA or BCAS have the right to question the authorities there? After all, they owe it to the airlines and passengers flying to and from India to these countries. |
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vt-ala
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Nimish
I don't know about the DEL vs. BOM debate that rdr is talking about - but it's definitely alarming that the "British aviation security authorities" are talking about taking punitive measures due to security loopholes at DIAL. Can you shed some light on this issue raised by the "British aviation security authorities"? And given the quoted articles says DIAL has confirmed the issue is being addressed, it does not seem too much like "arm chair" expertise in general (which supposedly abounds on this forum ), but that there are serious issues at the cargo side of DIAL. |
The issue is not with the loopholes in security, but how the rules are interpreted by the security and regulatory agencies. The BCAS has laid down procedures, but the way there is a difference of opinion among CISF and Customs among how it is to be implemented. I can't go into the details on a public forum but a part of this also had to do with the recent strike by cargo agents on screening procedures. The issue is indeed a pertinent one and is being sorted out.
Coming to my armchair expert remark, it was borne out of a number of off hand remarks made here by members clearly based on heresay. Over the last few weeks we have seen immense media bashing - deriding their lack of knowledge. What about in house folks who do the same?
I'll give an example below to illustrate my point
| Quote: | rdr
no background checks are reqd for temporary airport passes issued at the airports for general workers, undoing all the hard work the BCAS & CISF had initiated. its the fools elected who have no clue when they take up office. |
Mr rdr
I hope you are aware that BCAS has given the authority to airport operators long ago (from AAI days) to issue temporary passes to workers. This authority is to be used during hours when BCAS does not operate (read all times except Mon-Friday 0900-1730 hrs) to facilitate repair, maintenance works et al.
The people to whom passes are issued under such conditions are to be accompanied by another person who has a valid permanent AEP (read background checks done) and a valid photo ID like passport / licence / voter ID is to be produced at all times. This person also undergoes a full security check including x-ray of his baggage if any and a pat down. The same as any bonafide passenger or anyone else authorised to work at the airport. So where is the security breach please? |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| vt-ala wrote: | | So where is the security breach please? |
There doesn't appear to be one - at least not on the face of it. But the Times of India (a sensationalist rag masquerading as a newspaper) claims there is.
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Nimish
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| vt-ala wrote: | Coming to my armchair expert remark, it was borne out of a number of off hand remarks made here by members clearly based on heresay. Over the last few weeks we have seen immense media bashing - deriding their lack of knowledge. What about in house folks who do the same?
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Oh sure - members not in the know are going to make off hand remarks going on what they read in the press (the only source of information). But I wish those in the know would provide the corrections/ right information/ context in a manner that does not violate their confidentiality agreements. That would be the real value add on the forum, and is something we really look forward to. It would also shut all the "armchair CEOs" up pretty well.
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vt-ala
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Nimish
But I wish those in the know would provide the corrections/ right information/ context in a manner that does not violate their confidentiality agreements. That would be the real value add on the forum, and is something we really look forward to. |
I hope then I have been able to address the real issue to the satisfaction of a majority of members.
One needs to understand that no system is perfect. As and when deficiencies are pointed out or learnt the hard way (Mangalore for instance) - agencies concerned do take corrective action.
It may not match up to the level of expectancy the media (and in turn the general public) tends to drum up but I can assure you, action is taken. Case in point being Charkhi Dadri - wasn't that followed up with the installation of secondary radar at DEL and the opening of another approach / departure corridor? |
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| vt-ala wrote: | | One needs to understand that no system is perfect. As and when deficiencies are pointed out or learnt the hard way (Mangalore for instance) - agencies concerned do take corrective action. |
That's the point. Indian regulators are a bunch of irresponsible savages who wait for that one incident to look for an opportunity for change.
| vt-ala wrote: | | It may not match up to the level of expectancy the media (and in turn the general public) tends to drum up but I can assure you, action is taken. Case in point being Charkhi Dadri - wasn't that followed up with the installation of secondary radar at DEL and the opening of another approach / departure corridor? |
Well the point is Charkhi Dadri and other cases like the Bhopal gas tragedy or a tsunami are one-time events that may never happen again. Corrective action is useless and may just be done to pacify the public/media.
How about floods, failed monsoons and terrorist attacks? Regardless of corrective action being taken or not why do they continue to occur?
Us "armchair experts" are critics and more often than not, we have more pros than cons looking at it.
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rdr
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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VT-ALA,
you must be in an advanced state of denial that you quote Chakhi Dadri. The damn radars were lying in boxes for 2 years, and were only pulled out after the collision. The DGCA and the Air Force were in a power struggle for those corridors and it took this terrible accident to resolve their nonsense. Tell me how many more innocent people have to die before people like you can admit that the system is totally f####d and the entire mindset has to change ??
wait for the findings on Mangalore, then watch the usual cover up, inaction, delay, and finally selective amnesia. the authorities have got so good at this in every way.
it took 26/11 before they replaced 303 rifles and got some semblance of security in BOM. but when parliament was attacked they moved the troops to the front line in matter of days. i see it as every man for himself.
there is no place for nationalism in aviation, esp when a creditable and established structure is not up yet. as pilots, we can do only a good job, or we are dead.
aviation in India needs a Nilekhani type of clean up because the old days of Air India +sons/dghters and bags of cash sent to the DGCA cannot handle the size, demand and potential of whats happenning. can it be done......sure. there is no shortage of brilliant young people in India to kick the shit out of the old buggers who sit up there doing nothing but wait for the next accident to change a couple of 1937 rules. |
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vt-ala
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | rdr
you must be in an advanced state of denial that you quote Chakhi Dadri. The damn radars were lying in boxes for 2 years, and were only pulled out after the collision. The DGCA and the Air Force were in a power struggle for those corridors and it took this terrible accident to resolve their nonsense.Tell me how many more innocent people have to die before people like you can admit that the system is totally f####d and the entire mindset has to change ?? |
And I was waiting for exactly this sort of a response to prove my point about armchair experts. I had purposely included the secondary radar and second air corridor and left out the point on ACAS to see your reaction.
Do you know that post Charkhi Dadri, India was the first country in the world to make ACAS (Airborne Collision Avoidance System) mandatory? Now was this also a result of f***ed up mindset?
Sir, it is very easy to use swear words to drive home a point especially when you do not have any responsibility on your shoulders. I don't know who you are or what your background is - but I can say this for sure. If you really understood how aviation - or for that matter any transportation system works - you wouldn't be making such statements.
I seriously don't have the time to argue with people like you, so please consider this to be last post on this subject from me. And if you are really so scared about the state of affairs in Indian aviation, then my advice to you is to sit at home and not venture out ever. You might be aware, our trains and roads are even more unsafe - aren't they? |
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| vt-ala wrote: | | Quote: | rdr
you must be in an advanced state of denial that you quote Chakhi Dadri. The damn radars were lying in boxes for 2 years, and were only pulled out after the collision. The DGCA and the Air Force were in a power struggle for those corridors and it took this terrible accident to resolve their nonsense.Tell me how many more innocent people have to die before people like you can admit that the system is totally f####d and the entire mindset has to change ?? |
And I was waiting for exactly this sort of a response to prove my point about armchair experts. I had purposely included the secondary radar and second air corridor and left out the point on ACAS to see your reaction.
Do you know that post Charkhi Dadri, India was the first country in the world to make ACAS (Airborne Collision Avoidance System) mandatory? Now was this also a result of f***ed up mindset?
Sir, it is very easy to use swear words to drive home a point especially when you do not have any responsibility on your shoulders. I don't know who you are or what your background is - but I can say this for sure. If you really understood how aviation - or for that matter any transportation system works - you wouldn't be making such statements.
I seriously don't have the time to argue with people like you, so please consider this to be last post on this subject from me. And if you are really so scared about the state of affairs in Indian aviation, then my advice to you is to sit at home and not venture out ever. You might be aware, our trains and roads are even more unsafe - aren't they? |
I understand that TCAS was already in place in Europe/USA by then. So not sure about India's ''pioneering effort'there.
But someone else mentioned about a Nilekani style clean up- again, placing hopes on people doesnt help much. Not sayin he wont do the UID job, but the proof of the pudding lies in eating..nothing against mr Nilekani but lets wait and watch. A lot of Indians have done several noble and revolutionary things before him, for a fraction of the charisma, hype and money. |
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stealthpilot
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:01 am Post subject: |
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The article made it sound like they were more concerned about the freight side- the cargo handling, not the passenger screening?
| ssbmat wrote: | | How come we never hear of Indian authorities taking ANY sort of punitive actions against aviation (or other) authorities from Western countries? |
Well when we don't have the expertise, the manpower or the will to inspect or set standards for ourselves how will we go abroad and tell them what to do?
I agree with Vivek and Jaysit, there's nothing wrong in adopting a global 'best practice' ... we don't have the expertise + money + systems in place to certify an aircraft or anything similar so there's no harm in benchmarking/using JAA/FAA/EASA etc. Doing so doesn't mean we are bending over backwards.
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I am not against benchmarking against globally accepted standards- but how about Implementing them on a reciprocal basis.
Are the Indian authorities not equally concerned about Freight being loaded at UK or EU airports bound for India ? If so, do they inspect LHR,CDG, AMS (esp) and the like ? And this does not require any more 'expertise'' than what Indians would already have..and Indian authorities are certainly not short of money, not anymore..
As an example, look at El AL security..they may be a pain in the (o) from a pax standpoint but pretty effective.. |
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