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kam
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HAWK21M
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Pity no details adding to the confusion.
regds
MEL
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| AI's 772s seem to be getting more than their fair share of "going tech" these days. My BIL was flying BOM-CDG-EWR on a 772 in April, and his flight was delayed by 4 hours due to the 772 "going tech". Luckily that was at BOM and they managed to fix it and move on. |
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vivekman
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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The aircraft involved in the DEL-ATQ incident was VT-AIK, "Megh Malhar"
- Vivek |
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm! And people wonder why I call them rustbuckets!
Interesting! How can this happen? After all the aircraft are stateof the art arent they? Meanwhile 9W seems to do just fine with the slow, innefficient expensive A340-300's that they got from SAA.
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vivekman
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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There is one crucial difference Cougar!
The four 777s that AI *currently has* (leased from United Airlines i.e.) are very old; in fact from the initial lot of 777s manufactured by Boeing. They are older than the Jet Airways A343s (leased from SAA)
Out of this, one is a 772A variant, powered by P&W4077 engines. However, that is still no excuse for the increasing number of technical snags experienced by these aircraft, considering that the first ever 777 was delivered to UA only in May 1995 (twelve years old). I think it has more to do with AI's maintenance rather than the age of the aircraft.
The 777s that AI has on order are state-of-the-art. So calling them "rustbuckets" or "ratty" isn't fair.
What remains to be seen is how AI maintains and effectively utilizes these brand new aircraft.
- Vivek
P.S. Jet Airways has also had its share of problems with the A343s. Remember the couple of engine failure incidents last year?
| COUGAR wrote: | Hmm! And people wonder why I call them rustbuckets!
Interesting! How can this happen? After all the aircraft are stateof the art arent they? Meanwhile 9W seems to do just fine with the slow, innefficient expensive A340-300's that they got from SAA. |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Roy Your term is now World famous 
regds
MEL
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | Roy Your term is now World famous
regds
MEL |
I know beta!
| vivekman wrote: |
P.S. Jet Airways has also had its share of problems with the A343s. Remember the couple of engine failure incidents last year?
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Wow! never heard about it? Doesnt this say something else about AI and it managment? Have these idiots at Nariman Point heard about media management and PR?
But seriously: which were the engine shutdown inciddents with 9W's A340's? Any links?
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the_380
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: | | But seriously: which were the engine shutdown inciddents with 9W's A340's? Any links? |
Kudos to Vivek...he captured the aircraft while landing also:
And here is the discussion in the previous forum:
Thread in the previous forum
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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When were these engine shutdowns? And how many times did it go tech it comparison to AI's record?
Both have operated 3 aircraft each of the 2 types! How many times did the AI 777's go tech as compared the A340s oped by 9W?
The point i am making is not about the aircraft, but about the airline. Please note!
In any case: as a passenger I would rather have one engine fail in a 4engine aircraft than one engine fail in 2!
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the_380
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In any case: as a passenger I would rather have one engine fail in a 4engine aircraft than one engine fail in 2! |
Doesn't matter.... a Doha based Sheikh's flight flew for around 40 mins to BOM with one engine (A300)
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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even IC's A320's are rated for 120 mins ETOPS.
But even then Ia regular passneger would be more comfortable with one out of 3 failing than 1 out of 2!
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the_380
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Come onm Roy...thats a rare case and an emergency also.... but there is absolutely NO PROBLEM... i think the techies here can elaborate more on this.... Hawk, d-abth, etc
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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The frequency of an emergency is directly related to the quality of maintenance beta. And we all know where AI's maintenance standards are!
Look at one statistic: statistically 9W's fleet if 3x A340-300's should have had more incidences of going tech than Ai's fleet of 3 777-200A's since they have HALF the number of engines? But the truth is stranger than fiction!
When u decide on aircarft purchases you also need to see things like competency in maintenance and processes. And AI is nowhere close to 9W... forget about SQ!
The touted efficiency of the 777 was when u had maintenance standards of the kind that SQ has! For an airline liek AI, an 340 series aircraft made more sense! Factor in the cost of handling issues like aircraft going tech and then lets compare the A340 to the B777 for an airline like AI!
777 vs A340 is not so simple as it looks. you also need to look at the airline in question and its standards and processes. For an airline like 9W the 777 makes for superb economics. For an airline like AI, its plain stupidity!
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stealthpilot
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Just adding to what Vivek said- a 10 year old 777 isn’t 'old'.
| the_380 wrote: | | Come onm Roy...thats a rare case and an emergency also.... but there is absolutely NO PROBLEM... i think the techies here can elaborate more on this.... Hawk, d-abth, etc |
If an engine fails there most certainly is a problem. I know what you mean though, post V1 it’s nothing to worry about or lose sleep over (thank you fadec, eicas, ecam) but it is a problem.
| COUGAR wrote: | | And we all know where AI's maintenance standards are! |
Ooooooo wrong thing to say to him
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: |
The touted efficiency of the 777 was when u had maintenance standards of the kind that SQ has! For an airline liek AI, an 340 series aircraft made more sense! Factor in the cost of handling issues like aircraft going tech and then lets compare the A340 to the B777 for an airline like AI!
777 vs A340 is not so simple as it looks. you also need to look at the airline in question and its standards and processes. For an airline like 9W the 777 makes for superb economics. For an airline like AI, its plain stupidity! |
Why?
What makes you think that if the A340 were in AI's fleet, they wouldn't have gone tech? There is nothing inherently in the A340 that makes it easier to maintain than the 777. If anything having 4 power plants makes the maintenance of the A/C a bit more complex.
Maintenance of a 744 is, in fact, far more complex than a 777 or an A340. Yet, AI does perfectly fine with its 744s (except for the piece of junk it acquired from Air Canada).
To be fair to AI, I've taken Flight AI 144/191 several times on both 744s and 777s, and the flight has always been on time in both directions. In fact, on 2 occassions, we arrived at CDG 40 minutes ahead of schedule. |
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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In question here is AI's maintenance processes which are clearly pits. With double the number of engines and zat jazz, 9W is having fewer problesm with their A340's than AI is with their 777's!
Enuff said.
When your processes are the pits its better to stick to aircraft that are easier to maintain. The 777 is a nice aircraft all right, but for an airline with maintenance standards like AI all the more difficult to maintain.
Why? Because standards are always higher for Twin than a Quad!
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Karan69
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| COUGAR wrote: | With double the number of engines and zat jazz, 9W is having fewer problesm with their A340's than AI is with their 777's!
Why? Because standards are always higher for Twin than a Quad! |
ROY since you keep asking how AI were not able to get their hands on 343s when 9W did a few mths later--
in 9Ws case with the A340s--i cant reveal much of what i know, but let me tell you that the price they paid for each 340 aircraft, is close to thrice than what the market lease rates were at the time, and even today are around twice the rates of the aircraft.
The contract was so good that SAA were ready to send MX staff to train and initially upkeep the 340s something similar to the UA/AI/Bristol Leasing company deal. And AFAIK SAA conducts regular maintainance A checks at LHR once every 45 days since the aircrafts are due to go back to them this year anyways.
On A side note i am a 340 fan as a passenger
Karan |
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the_380
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | in 9Ws case with the A340s--i cant reveal much of what i know, but let me tell you that the price they paid for each 340 aircraft, is close to thrice than what the market lease rates were at the time, and even today are around twice the rates of the aircraft. |
That is 100% correct and infact the reason was that at that point of time it seemed only SAA had 3x A343s to lease out and there were two airlines bidding for it...i dunno the other airline but i think S2 was interested in them.... although im not too sure.... so the prices shot up and 9W signed an overweight deal
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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The point is AI's maintenance standards. Are AI's maintenance standards capable of handling a 777?
An A340 should theoretically have more things going wrong right? Well how many such incidents have happened to Jet and their A340s an dhow many incidents have happened to AI's rustbuckets?
The difference is in maintenance standards. AI has piss poor maintenanvce standards which is what is causing issues like this.
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avbuff
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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we just need to add a forum category " technical snags of AI "
and keep that column updated .. as it is something of this sort happens every month |
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blrsea
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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AI has been maintaining 744/A310s for decades now, and obviously have some experienced people working on it. Now, along comes new aircraft like 777s, and maybe the MX is not ready or able to absorb new technologies. Are the personnel too lazy or reluctant to learn maintaining a new fleet? Are the supervisors slacking off? Were trainings not conducted properly? are they slouching off and not doing their work properly?
The 777s haven't had too good of a record with AI. If maintenance indeed is the problem, then we can look forward to similar issues with the new aircraft too. |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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In fact Modern Aircraft are more easier to Operate & Maintain than their older counterparts.Its the Attitute thats needs polishing.
regds
MEL
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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9W also has had no previous experience with widebodies like A330/A340.
But have they had the kind of problems that AI has been facing? No!
With a older heritage, one would imagine that AI's processes would be better developed.
9W hasnt had instances of aircraft going tech with the frequency that AI has had. There clearly is a problem in work processes.
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tayaramecanici
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| blrsea wrote: | AI has been maintaining 744/A310s for decades now, and obviously have some experienced people working on it. Now, along comes new aircraft like 777s, and maybe the MX is not ready or able to absorb new technologies. Are the personnel too lazy or reluctant to learn maintaining a new fleet? Are the supervisors slacking off? Were trainings not conducted properly? are they slouching off and not doing their work properly?
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You capture the attitude within AI well, the Engg stff mainly the LAEs have a devil may care attitude. They are only interested in their posting US$$. Again since its a Govt owned entity there is no responsibility, DGCA the regulators are just another wing of the govt. We all are well aware of the political interference and rampant nepotism within our state owned corp. Most of the LAEs and the DGCA Inspector come from the same village as any of the ex-MoCA, as for most of the Bombaywalas we have flown out of that crabs nest long back.
I was at AI-Engg BOM in Jan this year, i was appalled at the state of the facility it was in absolute disrepair and neglect ( i am an ex-AI engineer and have done my apprenticeship there). The present Tech turn backs are a inevitable result of this neglect. I can only presume there was a ulterior motive to run the place down (build the now scrapped BOM 2 runway), but here again what is the role of the DGCA in this case aern't they supposed to ensure facilities are maintained to minimum standards? They don't need to run the place down at the cost of aircraft safety to further their vested interests.
I am surprised we don't see any investigative reporting by the media Press or Electronic. There are very crucial Q to be answered with the state of aviation in India. Its not all about AI / IA / 9W / etc its about time the govt got serious on getting out of the business of running the airline and get a sound management team in place. None of this Diwedidi, 3devi, tulsi or parvati from the civil service. They need to get experienced aviation personnell.
Regulations also need to be strengthened to bring it in line with EASA & FAA std across the board. |
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Well said KCM! We needed a post like that to put things in perspective.
Anyone who believes that going ut and getting a bunch of expensive 777/787 was going to turn aruond this airline was clearly wrong! The problems run deep and are within the processes and employee culture which are deeply flawed.
Now the same management that did AI in are being tasked to run IC as well and I fear will run that airline into the ground as well.
The single man to be blamed is Pee Pee: He has been promoting Thulasidas and his corrupt team.
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the_380
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The single man to be blamed is Pee Pee: He has been promoting Thulasidas and his corrupt team. |
Looks like thulsi's paying to Pee Pee 
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