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Government & society- Right vs responsibility

 
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ssbmat
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:40 am    Post subject: Government & society- Right vs responsibility Reply with quote

In the past week, two prominent incidents have provoked much anger, outrage in various parts of the world.

1) The brutal massacre of schoolkids in CT, USA and
2) The gang-rape of a young woman in a Delhi bus more recently.

These incidents are not unprecedented, and there is every chance that they will recur in the not-too-distant future.

The real question is, why is society and governments (in general) turning the other way ? To me, it points to a serious breakdown of law and order , particularly in the Indian context.
That people are getting away with these incidents with brazen aplomb.
This is where, the rights and responsibility (the so-called sides of the scale) come to question. Whereever people take undue advantage of rights, I think it is necessary to curb them so that people become more responsible.
In the Delhi rape context, newspapers are awash with articles regarding capital punishment for rapists.
This is just a knee-jerk reaction, IMO. Just a few days ago, the same newspapers were debating whether capital punishment should be slowly abolished (in the context of Kasab).
i think it is time to look at introducing a more comprehensive form of deterrence. But does the goverment have the moral spine to do so, when some of its representatives have criminal backgrounds?

Even in the USA, it is just shameful that political lobbying around some 18th century Act has allowed people to get away with gun crimes for many years. This is just like the Talibanic edicts trying to uphold centuries old religious belief at any costs. The 2nd amendment was made at the time when there were pikes and muskets. Today one can buy assault weapons openly!

It is urgently required to amend the laws to curb certain freedoms that will allow society to be regulated. Because whatever justification one may argue in favour of freedom and rights, one cannot explain the same to the rape victim OR indeed the parents of the innocent 6 year olds who were killed.

I feel that even the folks of the natural world (ie animals) are much better behaved and regulated !). They go about their lives abiding the natural laws..
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While both incidents are quite horrifying, I suspect the US incident is easier to prevent - by clamping down on gun ownership.

The Indian scenario is much more complex without a simple solution. Some simple steps include changing the laws to make rape victims shielded and not-humiliated (as I hear they normally are in court), and changing the judiciary that all criminal cases be tried and judgement passed in a short and time bound manner.
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The_Goat
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:

The Indian scenario is much more complex without a simple solution. Some simple steps include changing the laws to make rape victims shielded and not-humiliated (as I hear they normally are in court), and changing the judiciary that all criminal cases be tried and judgement passed in a short and time bound manner.


and clamping down heavily on this damned phenomenon called female infanticide.
Delhi's problem is that it is surrounded on three sides by a territory still in the intellectual stone age, which has a sex ratio of 7/10 in the favour of males. Hoardes of young men there have never set eyes on any female other than their own mothers. They invade Delhi in gangs solely to satiate their lust, and it is made very easy by the incompetent Delhi Police, staffed on many occasions by these predators themselves.
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stealthpilot
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssbmat wrote:
Whereever people take undue advantage of rights, I think it is necessary to curb them so that people become more responsible.

I agree in the context of gun ownership and a 200 year old law.
But just a question, what are the rights/responsibilities concerning the DEL rape?

Nimish wrote:
Some simple steps include changing the laws to make rape victims shielded and not-humiliated (as I hear they normally are in court), and changing the judiciary that all criminal cases be tried and judgement passed in a short and time bound manner.

Well said. I don't think capital punishment is the magical deterrent, but yes dedicated courts for speedy trails and protecting the victim is long overdue.

That's only one part of it, how do we teach society that women can go out at night, that they can wear short shorts and have mobile phones and not pay dowry etc etc?
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G-BYGB
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Capital Punishment is not the right option than I think the Court should provide Life-Long imprisonment to these rapist.

To me, teachings have to be done to the Police forces in India. It is because of their insensitivity that these unemployed, good for nothing men play with the life of Indian women. This is not only in Delhi but all across India.

Mere fancy dress habits of women does not prompt men to rape them. Unfortunately it is ingrained in our societal system since the ADs even when women did not were proper sarees. Most of them were in rural areas.
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ssbmat
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stealthpilot wrote:
ssbmat wrote:
Whereever people take undue advantage of rights, I think it is necessary to curb them so that people become more responsible.

I agree in the context of gun ownership and a 200 year old law.
But just a question, what are the rights/responsibilities concerning the DEL rape?

Nimish wrote:
Some simple steps include changing the laws to make rape victims shielded and not-humiliated (as I hear they normally are in court), and changing the judiciary that all criminal cases be tried and judgement passed in a short and time bound manner.

Well said. I don't think capital punishment is the magical deterrent, but yes dedicated courts for speedy trails and protecting the victim is long overdue.

That's only one part of it, how do we teach society that women can go out at night, that they can wear short shorts and have mobile phones and not pay dowry etc etc?


An example is Bollywood. Under the garb of so-called neo-liberalism, they have taken things to such an extreme that objectification of women has now become de-rigeur. No film is complete without an item song, usually depicted in the most lasvicous and depraved manner, and words to boot like "halkat jawani" and "laundiya patayenge missed call se " from Dabang 2.
And worse, kids nowadays idolise these stars and even compete for dance shows. I have seen parents from so called "upper crust" backgrounds encouraging their young girls to dance on songs like Sheela and Munni.. Its just utterly disgusting.
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The_Goat
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssbmat wrote:


An example is Bollywood. Under the garb of so-called neo-liberalism, they have taken things to such an extreme that objectification of women has now become de-rigeur. No film is complete without an item song, usually depicted in the most lasvicous and depraved manner, and words to boot like "halkat jawani" and "laundiya patayenge missed call se " from Dabang 2.
And worse, kids nowadays idolise these stars and even compete for dance shows. I have seen parents from so called "upper crust" backgrounds encouraging their young girls to dance on songs like Sheela and Munni.. Its just utterly disgusting.


Bollywood is just another industry. It caters to what the audience wants to see, and provides whatever will get the cash registers ringing.
There was once a time when seeing Bollywood stars prancing around the Swiss Alps was the in-thing. Now that has gone out of fashion. These days it is raunchy numbers, skimpily clad actresses and more-or-less explicit scenes that everyone wants.

I don't watch or relate to the new Bollywood flicks. But sometimes some masterpieces seem to tumble out of the swamp, like the new movie 'Oh My God', which I enjoyed watching thanks to some good samaritan who had put it up on YouTube..
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Jaysit
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:
While both incidents are quite horrifying, I suspect the US incident is easier to prevent - by clamping down on gun ownership.

The Indian scenario is much more complex without a simple solution. Some simple steps include changing the laws to make rape victims shielded and not-humiliated (as I hear they normally are in court), and changing the judiciary that all criminal cases be tried and judgement passed in a short and time bound manner.


Then you don't know the power of the US gun lobby. They're vicious, insane, and scream bloody murder if their so-called rights to possess any number of any kind of weapon is restricted.

But I agree that the Indian case is far more difficult to address. Misogyny in India is deep-rooted and such a part of the Indian societal DNA that it will take years to fully address and overcome. Education would be a good start, but India's education system (other than a few schools in the metros), sorry to say, is the pits.

Also, blaming Bollywood for its depiction of women is absurd. The women in item numbers are actually far more in control of their surroundings than the "sati savitris" of days of yore who bore the horrible conditions imposed upon them with a sense of resignation and a few endless weepy songs.
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ssbmat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Bollywood does not have the right to speak about these issues because they are, in some measure responsible for titillation of the public sentiments. Agreed, the heroine depicted in the movie may be in control of her surroundings, but isnt she and the rest of them pandering to the baser instincts, that good moral education that you talk about, is trying to overcome?

And you cannot deny the influence of films on todays society. When you see several young kids enthralled by these crude songs and aping their dance steps in various "competitions" , encouraged by their parents from an aspirational perspective, it really makes one wonder what kind of generation kids want to become.
Of course, Bollywood is not my only problem, but it is definitely 10% of the overall problem. And Bollywood in this context means all of the Indian entertainment industry.

There is drastic reduction of moral and spiritual values which goes hand-in-hand with lack of respect of law at all levels.
[url]



http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/must-ensure-her-death-is-not-in-vain-prime-minister-310968?pfrom=home-otherstories[/url]
The first thing they should do is to hang their heads in shame in public view .
The girl has died, and now they ask for public calm?? If people were "calm" back in the early 20th century, India would not have come to existence.
Anyway., what can you say about someone who needs to read from a prepared text on such issues, and then has to check whether his speech went okay by asking "Theek Hai "?
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G-BYGB
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So sad to wake up this morning to hear the news of the Rape victim's demise...Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad May her soul RIP... Sad Crying or Very sad

It is time for the International community to put pressure on Indian administration to come up with stringent laws that will protect Women in this country.

If our Government does not abide by this than the world community should impose severe sanctions on us.

Seriously, it is a wake up call for all of us.
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ssbmat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-BYGB wrote:
So sad to wake up this morning to hear the news of the Rape victim's demise...Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad May her soul RIP... Sad Crying or Very sad

It is time for the International community to put pressure on Indian administration to come up with stringent laws that will protect Women in this country.

If our Government does not abide by this than the world community should impose severe sanctions on us.

Seriously, it is a wake up call for all of us.


Other countries are not the paragon of social virtue. It is this weakness of resolve that prompts us to think that International pressure will help. If this were the case, let India be ruled over by other countries once again. We have no right to remain as an independent country if we cannot formulate laws , implement them effectively and bring about necessary social change . The strength of a nation lies in its intrinsic resolve first, and then its external influence.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my Facebook status copied, but here is my view about it..

Quote:
Its simple..
We are being ruled by a bunch of idiots. I feel, Delhi is the most dangerous capital in the world, right now.
Its sad how girls have to fear for their lives when they have to get back home.
What difference would it make if the rapists are killed? Where is the guarantee that it will never happen again? Many rapes have occurred while she was still alive in hospital.
A bunch of corrupt brats ruling a nation of 1.2 billion is not the way to go. They won't invest in basic necessities like street lighting, better transport or security. They want to be a leader in this world which will never happen.
RIP Damini (although that its not her real name). While I, like many others, demand justice, I doubt if anything will happen.

And its not only in India. Its us, the humans; the society who are being the idiots. What about the incident in the Elementary School? What about 9/11?
Its us who need to improve, for our own good.

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justbala
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have been going through facebook posts lamenting the failure of the government in preventing the unfortunate tragedy in Delhi.

But wht exactly is the government supposed to do - protect us from ourselves?! Monitor every individual like Big Brother?!

Hanging rapists or publicly executing them would not solve the situation. We are unfortunately only looking to cure the symptoms than the root cause.

Heinous crimes like rape, molestation, fondling, eve teasing etc are a result of the sexually repressive society that we live in. We have TV channels that deem that the word "Breast" in "Breast Cancer" is an expletive and hence needs to be beeped out. We have the so called moral brigades protecting the so-called fragile Indian culture from acts like holding hands in public or a boy n girl having a drink. Eve teasing is considered an act of machismo and most boys never really have the opportunity to actually interact with a girl.

The victorian prudishness that we unfortunately inherited from our colonial masters only makes matters worse.

If young boys and girls are allowed to freely mingle with each other at a very young age, the chances of them considering the opposite sex as a person and not an object of enigma is very high.

I know this is an opinion that many people, even the educated ones in India cannot digest. But until society changes its ways, no amount of capital punishment is going to get rid of the menace.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justbala wrote:
Have been going through facebook posts lamenting the failure of the government in preventing the unfortunate tragedy in Delhi.

But wht exactly is the government supposed to do - protect us from ourselves?! Monitor every individual like Big Brother?!

Hanging rapists or publicly executing them would not solve the situation. We are unfortunately only looking to cure the symptoms than the root cause.

Heinous crimes like rape, molestation, fondling, eve teasing etc are a result of the sexually repressive society that we live in. We have TV channels that deem that the word "Breast" in "Breast Cancer" is an expletive and hence needs to be beeped out. We have the so called moral brigades protecting the so-called fragile Indian culture from acts like holding hands in public or a boy n girl having a drink. Eve teasing is considered an act of machismo and most boys never really have the opportunity to actually interact with a girl.

The victorian prudishness that we unfortunately inherited from our colonial masters only makes matters worse.

If young boys and girls are allowed to freely mingle with each other at a very young age, the chances of them considering the opposite sex as a person and not an object of enigma is very high.

I know this is an opinion that many people, even the educated ones in India cannot digest. But until society changes its ways, no amount of capital punishment is going to get rid of the menace.


I can't agree more. The current government is shods, but it's a whole lot of hullabaloo demanding them to do something about this.
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ssbmat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This hullaballo is really about the frustration of the common man, especially the urban Indian, who accounts for over 35% of the population, and who is largely responsible for turning the wheels of this nation.
In addition to corruption, price rise , law-and-order is another issue that the public have taken in earnest. And amongst these evils, the Law-and-order situation affects public safety.
Many people may not be affected by corruption or be yet insulated against price-rise, but not against lawlessness.

And while one can revile media or even bash it rather uncharitably (ala Big B), they have atleast been instrumental in chastisizing the government and galvanizing opinion. PM, the Congress party chief, the HM all scrambling for answers atleast shows some effect. Lets see how long it lasts.
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justbala
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssbmat wrote:
This hullaballo is really about the frustration of the common man, especially the urban Indian, who accounts for over 35% of the population, and who is largely responsible for turning the wheels of this nation.
In addition to corruption, price rise , law-and-order is another issue that the public have taken in earnest. And amongst these evils, the Law-and-order situation affects public safety.
Many people may not be affected by corruption or be yet insulated against price-rise, but not against lawlessness.

And while one can revile media or even bash it rather uncharitably (ala Big B), they have atleast been instrumental in chastisizing the government and galvanizing opinion. PM, the Congress party chief, the HM all scrambling for answers atleast shows some effect. Lets see how long it lasts.


The incident in question is not the result of the so-called "lawlessness", it is a hormone and alcohol fuelled antics of sex-starved monsters. The solution is not legal, but sociological. While you would like to blame the government for everything, the solution for this menace has to do with the society and not the government.

Anything that the government brings in as a law would only be short sighted. Shameless politicos and their coterie attempting to milk this situation are worse offenders than the rapists.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-BYGB wrote:
It is time for the International community to put pressure on Indian administration to come up with stringent laws that will protect Women in this country.


What, and turn into another Iran or Afghanistan with a puppet at the head of the nation?

Not that it's any different now, mind you. Manmohan may as well be a housefly.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justbala wrote:


The victorian prudishness that we unfortunately inherited from our colonial masters only makes matters worse.

.


Only a matter of time before someone blames the British! How predictable!

We Indians were prudish much before the British even knew we existed. The bad treatment of our women started thanks to a certain race belonging to a hilly country on our north which came here uninvited with all their medieval baggage and ruled us for a few centuries afterwards. The British had nothing to do with it.

And neither The Victorians nor their Queen were in any way prudish. Victoria allegedly, had a roaring affair with one of her Indian servants, much against the way of those times. Read all about it here.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_revealed-queen-victoria-s-secret-love-for-her-indian-servant_1679137
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justbala wrote:

Hanging rapists or publicly executing them would not solve the situation.

I know this is an opinion that many people, even the educated ones in India cannot digest. But until society changes its ways, no amount of capital punishment is going to get rid of the menace.


From now onwards, parents of various socio-economic class should understand that it is no longer viable to show gender bias in the modern world.

Girls also should be kept in the equal pedestal if not one notch above boys. Parents should cherish with whatever child they get be it boy or a girl. They should respect the basic rights of a woman.

This societal change can take place only with the sustained pressure from the youths (mainly boys) to teach others that Violence Against Woman of any kind will not be tolerated by the public.

As far as the question of what should be done to these rapists goes, to me any form of punishment that can act as a permanent deterant to any future rapes, then I'am all for it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssbmat wrote:


Other countries are not the paragon of social virtue. It is this weakness of resolve that prompts us to think that International pressure will help. If this were the case, let India be ruled over by other countries once again. We have no right to remain as an independent country if we cannot formulate laws , implement them effectively and bring about necessary social change . The strength of a nation lies in its intrinsic resolve first, and then its external influence.


Well its been over 6 decades since our Independence and we are yet to see the real freedom given to women in this country. All the laws framed are not firmly implemented.

And every now and then we hear from some of the male members of the Parliament presenting their dictat on what needs to be done and what not to be by women, inorder to avoid being raped. Some of our MPs are also accused of being rapists.

Another thing to worry is politicians and men from states like Haryana, UP, Bihar, MP and Punjab have poor track record in protecting a woman's rights. They still follow the orders from Khap Panchayats. As a result, most of their women are killed in the name of so called Honor Killing.

So all these factors clearly points out that people require help from the international community to put pressure on our government to take stringent action against the culprits and certain politicians.
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