Airliners-India.com Flickr Group & Facebook    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Agni missile "misses" Garuda Indonesia 747          Airliners-India.com Forum Index -> Civil Aviation View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message karatecatman Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Agni missile "misses" Garuda Indonesia 747 DELETED IN APPROPRIATE POST since whole article ws posted and links to the articles not provided Back to top malQ Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 713 Location: Delhi, India Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Armed Forces warnngs over open seas are SOP, and the Indonesians are also entitled to their protests, so be it. Difficult to imaine that the airliner was not informed by ATC. ANyways, let us await more information. Back to top lambuhere1 Member Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 232 Location: In the Skies Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: But I still believe Indonesian and Singapore airlines do file their flight plan with the required ATC's. Shouldnt it be the responsibility of ATC's to cross check with the defence about the testing and all, as the test dates and information was already public. Back to top saurabhm_101 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 529 Location: Mumbai Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: i think it is stupid! i mean saying 'it could have' and making such assumptions of such situations where the missile did not even touch the plane is ridiculous! i agree it was a close call but still.... cheers! _________________ Flying High.... You and Me...! Back to top karatecatman Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.1327375.0.brits_swelter_in_plane_ordeal.php Brits swelter in plane ordeal *** Indonesia is summoning the Indian Ambassador for an explanation and is also going to lodgfe a complaint with IATA. The Indonesian Foreign Minister has said it wants an assurance from India that such things will not happen in future. Back to top malQ Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 713 Location: Delhi, India Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: karatecatman wrote: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.1327375.0.brits_swelter_in_plane_ordeal.php Brits swelter in plane ordeal *** Indonesia is summoning the Indian Ambassador for an explanation and is also going to lodgfe a complaint with IATA. The Indonesian Foreign Minister has said it wants an assurance from India that such things will not happen in future. +++ a) On the British tourists not allowed off the aircraft at CCU, well, I guess that must have been a bilateral thing, considering the way Indians without British visas are treated in transit at LHR. Or maybe the Brits on package tours to Phuket did not wish to buy an Indian visa? b) On the Indonesian Foreign Minister complaining, I wonder what they do when the navies of the West and their airforces routinely move around through the waterways around Indonesia. Much ado over something routine, I think neighbouring countries need to get used to the fact that there is a new power in the block. Back to top Jaysit Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:36 pm    Post subject: malQ wrote: karatecatman wrote: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.1327375.0.brits_swelter_in_plane_ordeal.php Brits swelter in plane ordeal *** Indonesia is summoning the Indian Ambassador for an explanation and is also going to lodgfe a complaint with IATA. The Indonesian Foreign Minister has said it wants an assurance from India that such things will not happen in future. +++ a) On the British tourists not allowed off the aircraft at CCU, well, I guess that must have been a bilateral thing, considering the way Indians without British visas are treated in transit at LHR. Or maybe the Brits on package tours to Phuket did not wish to buy an Indian visa? b) On the Indonesian Foreign Minister complaining, I wonder what they do when the navies of the West and their airforces routinely move around through the waterways around Indonesia. Much ado over something routine, I think neighbouring countries need to get used to the fact that there is a new power in the block. Talk about arrogance. I'm sure that Thailand is really impressed that India has new missiles, but can't even run an airport or keep its streets clean of filth. Also, when you force an aircraft to land at your airport because of extraneous reasons, you do not make them "buy" a visa. If this is the standard of Indian hospitality, its no wonder that more foreign tourists visit Phuket alone, than all of India combined. Back to top malQ Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 713 Location: Delhi, India Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Talk about how Indians are treated as "aliens" when theiy are in the position that these aliens (not guests, not foreigners, not distressed pax, but aliens, since it was a planned detour and re-fuelling option) were. There are issues on who will pay for the fuel, the charges, and not too long ago there was the issue of a Britisher running away from an aircraft that had arms/ammo on it, remember? So what would you have done, Jaysit, that we open the joys of Park Street for them? These are the realities of aviation. Want to visit, then buy a visa. Back to top Jaysit Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: malQ wrote: Talk about how Indians are treated as "aliens" when theiy are in the position that these aliens (not guests, not foreigners, not distressed pax, but aliens, since it was a planned detour and re-fuelling option) were. There are issues on who will pay for the fuel, the charges, and not too long ago there was the issue of a Britisher running away from an aircraft that had arms/ammo on it, remember? So what would you have done, Jaysit, that we open the joys of Park Street for them? These are the realities of aviation. Want to visit, then buy a visa. They're not visiting. They were forced to land. The issue of buying a visa is moot. Are you telling me that if an aircraft made an emergency landing because of an engine malfunction, all passengers onboard would be expected to purchase Indian visas? I've been on a Delta flight from India to the US via Frankfurt that was forced to make a landing in Manchester, England, and none of the over 150 Indian nationals onboard were expected to obtain visas while alternate arrangements were made to get them to the US. Allowing passengers to deplane at Kolkata (an international airport that barely sees an international flight for most of the day) and stretch their legs for a six hour wait would be perfectly acceptable. And if a "Britisher" (they're called Britons, my dear), ran away from an aircraft carrying ammo, what the hell does it have to do with this occurrence? Here we had a tourist charter filled with tourists who were carrying suntan lotion. I say, get that chip off your shoulder. India would benefit mightily by showing that much vaunted Eastern hospitality and grace instead of acting like arrogant jerks. Contrary to what many Indians think, India is not the numero Uno nation in the world, and frankly, most SE Asian countries now share some respect for India not because of the country's nuclear prowess or its Agni missiles (most of which flop uselessly in the Bay of Bengal anyways), but because its had the sense after 50 years of independence to adopt free market policies. The US could have gotten away with the ugly incident involving the Iran Air Airbus in 1988, and that too it barely did. It came under intense criticism and the incident only served to worsen US-MiddleEast relations. If India stupidly and mistakenly hit an aircraft from a friendly country with one of its missiles and needlessly caused the death of hundreds of innocents, you can bet that the reputation of the country would be in the toilet. Don't confuse 9% economic growth rates for a carte blanche to act like a global superpower bully. India has a long way to go before it can adopt that mantle. Until then, its best to show the best face of India to the world. Back to top C-GHKR Member Joined: 26 Dec 2006 Posts: 626 Location: yyz Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: Interesting to read the above two posts. As both have valid points, a balance between the two extremes would be good. India is under-rated in the west and over-rated in India. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/indonesia_india_missile The Garuda Indonesia plane was carrying 413 Muslim pilgrims from the capital, Jakarta, to Saudi Arabia, when the Indian control tower told pilots the missile had been launched, said Ari Sapari, the national carrier's director. It was not that they turned after seeing a missile coming at them as I first read in this discussion. This should be a joke "We were not given any advance warning about this missile test," he said. "This was obviously confusing and worrying. It also caused us to disrupt an international flight schedule - a great financial expense. What do these guys think of themselves, they screwed up their own aviation record(all the recent incidents), now thaey got a chance to act too smart! Back to top victor2alpha Member Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 120 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Oh btw, another Garuda jet made emergency landing today! Hope you guys recall the previous crash of the 734 and the report! _________________ victor2alpha Back to top HAWK21M Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 8132 Location: Mumbai, INDIA Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Shouldn't the NOTAM mention this. regds MEL _________________ Think of the Brighter side !!! Back to top shivendrashukla Member Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 1354 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Ya. I just saw an interview from Mr Navtej Sarana. He's our MEA spokesman. He did say that NOTAM's were issued and all civilian airliners were asked to stay clear of that area, also fisherman were advised not to venture out to sea. Cheers Shivendra Back to top G-BYGB Member Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 1813 Location: Bangalore/Delhi Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: .Surprisingly no news channel has covered this story so far. _________________ www.flickr.com/G-BYGB photos Back to top shivendrashukla Member Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 1354 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:32 pm    Post subject: G-BYGB wrote: .Surprisingly no news channel has covered this story so far. SURPRISE!!!!! DD News did Cheers Shivendra Back to top G-BYGB Member Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 1813 Location: Bangalore/Delhi Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Well I don't get DD news channel at my place so anyways it does'nt matter. _________________ www.flickr.com/G-BYGB photos Back to top HamiltonAir Member Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 937 Location: Bangalore Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: When they were given advance notice about the test, what the F*** is with this statement : "We were not given any advance warning about this missile test," he said. "This was obviously confusing and worrying. It also caused us to disrupt an international flight schedule - a great financial expense. " Complete BS _________________ HamiltonAir Back to top Jaysit Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: C-GHKR wrote: India is under-rated in the west and over-rated in India. Well, I don't think that India is underrated anymore in the West. In fact, the West sees India as the great Asian hope and if anything else, the West now trumpets India louder than even India does. However, India has a long way to go before expectations meet reality. Until then, its best not to act like an irresponsible bully with an ugly superiority complex. Back to top stealthpilot Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject: Jaysit wrote: In fact, the West sees India as the great Asian hope and if anything else, the West now trumpets India louder than even India does. Have to disagree with you there, but anyway Jaysit wrote: Don't confuse 9% economic growth rates for a carte blanche to act like a global superpower bully. India has a long way to go before it can adopt that mantle. Until then, its best to show the best face of India to the world Perfect! Now in connection to the visa issue, were they let off the plane? The link didn’t load so I didn’t read the article? Im sure arrangements could be made for them to wait in a sterile part of the terminal (however it was an Indian airport = dump = makes things complicated) I Believe we need to make our own fair policies on these issues and not reciprocate the so called unfavorable treatment of other nations. _________________ eP007 Back to top VABBy Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Jaysit wrote: And if a "Britisher" (they're called Britons, my dear), ran away from an aircraft carrying ammo, what the hell does it have to do with this occurrence? Here we had a tourist charter filled with tourists who were carrying suntan lotion. I say, get that chip off your shoulder. India would benefit mightily by showing that much vaunted Eastern hospitality and grace instead of acting like arrogant jerks. Fine the India could have minted a couple of extra USD by being a bit hospitable here but i would rate our country defence preparedness a much higher priority over all this nuisance. I dont think by exercising the right for self defence we are being a global bully infact i feel india is more of a soft state i wud rather ask them to look at china which follows its own policies and doesnt care about others. It seems its totally Garuda,s fault who didnt follow the Notam issued and operated their flight similarly if the ATC,s would have informed of the same to other airlines these things would not have happened. _________________ Expeditors- You'd be surprised how far we will go for you www.expeditors.com Back to top victor2alpha Member Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 120 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: From a dispatcher friend of mine: Quote: On Monday or Tuesday this week there was a NOTAM issued for the YMMM FIR (Melbourne FIR) that told of this rocket firing and the possible danger area. If YMMM got it, I'm sure the other FIRs got it too. So it's a case of either the NOTAM people at Garuda or in the Indonesian CAA people making a mistake coz the YMMM FIR is huge and extends way out into the Indian Ocean hmmm _________________ victor2alpha Back to top Birendra Member Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1411 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: where can NOTAMS be found generally on a website Back to top malQ Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 713 Location: Delhi, India Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Hmmm, there are a few issues here:- a) Is the Indian Govt. entitled to block off air space? Yes it is, and this is unilateral, we simply need to let the rest of the world know about it. b) Is the Indian Govt. obliged to provide free and easy access to all aliens entering by air, when their aircraft land at Indian airports for refuelling? Well, the last time a form of governance in India did so, no doubt they came by sea but then airplanes weren't exactly that good at that time in history, the East India Company came to stay, and we must not forget that Charnock and Co. did sail up the Hooghly, via Calcutta/Kolkata, for similar reasons. So Britons / Britishers / other aliens do need to be treated with caution. In any case, many of these things are subject to bi-laterals, so any relaxation needs to be dealt with cautiously. c) Is it fair to assume that all air-charter tourists will be carrying only suntan? Not at all. Facts and experience suggest otherwise. d) Are the Indonesians justified in protesting? Certainly, they can protest, but it is our airspace, so bad luck. e) Most importantly, did the air-charter operator even ask for permission to let their passengers off? Ah-ha! My sources inform me that they didn't do so, simply because they weren't willing to! +++ I will request interactors, sitting, standing or otherwise, to please respond to this as far as aviation is concerned. 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