Airliners-India.com Flickr Group & Facebook    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Jet, Sahara may get to fly Gulf routes in 2008          Airliners-India.com Forum Index -> Civil Aviation View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message karatecatman Guest Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Jet, Sahara may get to fly Gulf routes in 2008 Jet, Sahara may get to fly Gulf routes next year http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Jet_Sahara_may_get_to_fly_Gulf_routes/articleshow/1835664.cms Quote: The change in the government stand on giving private players the leeway follows the merger of Indian and Air India, which is currently under way. It is felt that the merged entity - with its large fleet and huge network - would be in a position to take on the competition. The official said the move is part of government’s initiative to further liberalise the sector and prepare the state-owned airlines for competition from private airlines. Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: AND WATCH MY WORDS: AI AND IC REDUCE THEIR FLIGHTS!!!!!! WHAT THE HELL CAN BE THE REASON? _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top Nimish Member Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 9757 Location: Bangalore, India Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: the_380 wrote: AND WATCH MY WORDS: AI AND IC REDUCE THEIR FLIGHTS!!!!!! WHAT THE HELL CAN BE THE REASON? WHO THE HELL CARES? All we really care about is getting reasonably priced flights with good service on board. Whether 9W or IC or S2 or AI - who cares? If AI/AIX are genuinely good, they should have no problem battling 9W/S2 given the decades of lead they have on this sector. And enough conspiracy theories about how AI/IC are being made to "suffer" to the benefit of 9W. If that were the case, neither of AI/IC would get any new a/c, and the AIX 738s would be deputed to flying DEL-Raipur or some other obscure sector at 5 X / day. Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Time will tell ... Why did IC pull out on so many routes then? eg BLR-BBI-BLR ... this route wa started with their A320s and then they stopped the routes? Why? Have an answer? And then after a few days IT starts that flight? Had it been a non profitable flight why the hell would IT start it then? _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top stealthpilot Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: the_380 wrote: Time will tell ... Why did IC pull out on so many routes then? eg BLR-BBI-BLR ... this route wa started with their A320s and then they stopped the routes? Why? Have an answer? And then after a few days IT starts that flight? Had it been a non profitable flight why the hell would IT start it then? I don’t know- but I do know it’s not what you're thinking. Trying to second guess what IC or AI do wit their schedules is meaningless from our outside point of view. There could be 100 reasons and possibilites...... the_380 wrote: AND WATCH MY WORDS: AI AND IC REDUCE THEIR FLIGHTS!!!!!! WHAT THE HELL CAN BE THE REASON? And no, in the long run the number of flights will increase. If IC/AI drop flights = it’s because people will chose other carriers = that means AI/IC are not what the market wants. I agree with nimish, I don’t get this idea at all? protection protection protection? _________________ eP007 Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: stealthpilot wrote: There could be 100 reasons and possibilites...... And can you speak of one possibility out of those hundred ??? stealthpilot wrote: And no, in the long run the number of flights will increase. If IC/AI drop flights = it’s because people will chose other carriers = that means AI/IC are not what the market wants. How can you be sure that flights will increase in the long run? stealthpilot wrote: I agree with nimish, I don’t get this idea at all? protection protection protection? When were they actually given 'protection'? Had they been then today both the airlines would have been in a much better situation !!! _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top Karan69 Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1334 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Thats good in a way i guess, but will the likes of 9W and S2 operate in 5th freedom style Like BOM-DXB-BAH or will they initiate flights on a point to point basis, i just hope they do it with their PTV equipped 738s. Karan Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Karan69 wrote: i just hope they do it with their PTV equipped 738s. Thats gonna be worse if they do... _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top Karan69 Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1334 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: [quote="the_380Thats gonna be worse if they do...[/quote] Any particular reason, in what context are you saying it in--In a compettiive sense to AI/IC because i was saying it from a passenger point of view. Karan Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Karan69 wrote: Any particular reason, in what context are you saying it in--In a compettiive sense to AI/IC because i was saying it from a passenger point of view. Passenger point of view... have seen the horrible situations of most of the Gulf bound passengers... surprisingly someone shared with me that on his flight in EK BOM-DXB he actually saw a passenger wiping his hands after his food in the seat cover !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder what will happen to the IFEs with such people _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top 15a Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 271 Location: Bangalore Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:40 pm    Post subject: just some clarifications IC still does fly (as alliance air 5 days a week and regular a320 service on 2 days a week) Blr-Bhubaneshar (the alliance air flights are routed via Chennai). Kingfisher does NOT fly bhubaneshwar from Bangalore - indeed it flies to Hyd from Bhubaneshwar. Also, private airlines are being far more effective in opening up new cities which have been neglected in the past - no thanks to Indian airlines. eg Vijayawada - which Deccan and Kingfisher have shown can be profitable to fly to..or Hubli or Belgaum..or for that matter looking at how paramount has made a sector like Chennai-madurai work with 4 flights a day each way...and IC continues to fly 1 flight a day.. so i cant really see your point of IC creating sectors and vacating them for private operators whom the ministry allegedly favours Back to top Nimish Member Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 9757 Location: Bangalore, India Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: the_380 wrote: When were they actually given 'protection'? Had they been then today both the airlines would have been in a much better situation !!! While IC/AI might have been in a better position with protection, the flying population would still be stuck waiting for the next slow train between major cities. But now with private airlines launching new secondary routes by the day, it's the end passenger who benefits, and IC is forced to wake up and try and fix it's 12-15 A320's sitting idle waiting for repairs. Please A380 - leave the endless conspiracy theories out for a minute. IC (and it's brand of route planning, schedules, ground service etc.) is not what the flying passenger really wants, that's the bottom line. Refer to 15a's excellent post above for further details on how the private players are being pioneers on secondary city routes, and where there's no question of the ministry interfering to the disadvantage of IC. Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: For you its a 'theory' Nimish Quote: While IC/AI might have been in a better position with protection, the flying population would still be stuck waiting for the next slow train between major cities. In that case as per your statement you're having trouble with IC's domestic standards, ask airlines to operate for 10 years domestic before they fly international. That will bring a competition to the 'next slow trains' Quote: But now with private airlines launching new secondary routes by the day, it's the end passenger who benefits, and IC is forced to wake up and try and fix it's 12-15 A320's sitting idle waiting for repairs. Waiting for what? Spares or repairs? Clarify your statement. Spares cost money, the GoI must spend money to get these spares. Ask PP why hasn't he got those spares yet. Quote: IC still does fly (as alliance air 5 days a week and regular a320 service on 2 days a week) Blr-Bhubaneshar (the alliance air flights are routed via Chennai). Kingfisher does NOT fly bhubaneshwar from Bangalore - indeed it flies to Hyd from Bhubaneshwar. Ph yes...sorry got confused between the two cities _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top karatecatman Guest Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Bottomline that can't be possibly disputed is that many of the (private) airlines are also recklessly expanding without keeping in mind profitability. So it doesn't necessarily mean that finding new routes to fly on is great. Is there also commitment to the route? DN has already stopped flying on a few of its so-called pioneering routes. In Tamil Nadu also, we have been hearing DN talk for the past many years on opening up Salem, Vellore and a few otehr stations. Still remains as hot air. Back to top BigTom Member Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 271 Location: Dubai, UAE Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: the_380 wrote: Karan69 wrote: Any particular reason, in what context are you saying it in--In a compettiive sense to AI/IC because i was saying it from a passenger point of view. Passenger point of view... have seen the horrible situations of most of the Gulf bound passengers... surprisingly someone shared with me that on his flight in EK BOM-DXB he actually saw a passenger wiping his hands after his food in the seat cover !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder what will happen to the IFEs with such people So what do you suggest, put all of us on boats and not allow us to fly? Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: BigTom wrote: So what do you suggest, put all of us on boats and not allow us to fly? IMO IFEs only for the first class... _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top stealthpilot Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: the_380 wrote: And can you speak of one possibility out of those hundred ??? You’re asking me why IC yanked a route and why IT jumped in? Since you can’t think of any possibilities, maybe IC was making money but could make more somewhere else. Maybe they weren’t making money, and IT thought they could. Maybe IT was willing to get their foot in the door and lose money for a few months before the route became profitable. Maybe IC wasn’t doing well on the route and wanted to slot the aircraft somewhere else. Just because one airline doesn’t make money doesn’t mean all wont There are many ‘maybes’ and many reasons……. the_380 wrote: How can you be sure that flights will increase in the long run? ??? The entire industry will grow in the long run unless terrorism/fuel shortage/something horrible and unexpected happens. It’s not a mature market… How can I give explain why air traffic will increase? To put it simply as trade/tourism/transit pax/ as economies grow and people get richer they fly more. Therefore flights will increase. the_380 wrote: When were they actually given 'protection'? Had they been then today both the airlines would have been in a much better situation !!! Are you serious?? You don’t think IC and AI have been protected in any way? the_380 wrote: In that case as per your statement you're having trouble with IC's domestic standards, ask airlines to operate for 10 years domestic before they fly international. That will bring a competition to the 'next slow trains' I don’t get what you’re saying? karatecatman wrote: Bottomline that can't be possibly disputed is that many of the (private) airlines are also recklessly expanding without keeping in mind profitability. So it doesn't necessarily mean that finding new routes to fly on is great. Is there also commitment to the route? True, lots and lots of money will be lost and the growth will certainly slow down. But in the long run, the industry will grow. Lots of people don’t realize how small and tiny India’s aviation industry is. Airlines will open up routes they think will make them money, immediately or in the future. Commitment to a route would be great, but not necessary in my opinion. _________________ eP007 Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Quote: You’re asking me why IC yanked a route and why IT jumped in? Since you can’t think of any possibilities, maybe IC was making money but could make more somewhere else. Maybe they weren’t making money, and IT thought they could. Maybe IT was willing to get their foot in the door and lose money for a few months before the route became profitable. Maybe IC wasn’t doing well on the route and wanted to slot the aircraft somewhere else. Just because one airline doesn’t make money doesn’t mean all wont There are many ‘maybes’ and many reasons……. I can understand your point that IT was ready to shed out some more to experiment...but tell me one thing, your the CEO, you launch ABC-DEF flights and make good profits, will you stop that flight and start another flight to 'experiment' ??? Would you prefer pulling out a profit making sector or a loss making sector rather ?? Huh! Quote: ??? The entire industry will grow in the long run unless terrorism/fuel shortage/something horrible and unexpected happens. It’s not a mature market… How can I give explain why air traffic will increase? To put it simply as trade/tourism/transit pax/ as economies grow and people get richer they fly more. Therefore flights will increase. Remember East-West, Damania ??? Did people predict that? Quote: Are you serious?? You don’t think IC and AI have been protected in any way? And what protection are you talking about? Quote: I don’t get what you’re saying? I was quoting Nimish: Quote: While IC/AI might have been in a better position with protection, the flying population would still be stuck waiting for the next slow train between major cities. Since he was refering to problems with IC's domestic flights why don't you ask the pvt airlines to fly domestic to reduce your problems and burden on the 'next slow train' Quote: Commitment to a route would be great, but not necessary in my opinion. Then why publicize about it so much??? Just to attract investors?? _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top Nimish Member Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 9757 Location: Bangalore, India Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: the_380 wrote: And what protection are you talking about? OMG - this must be the funniest statement I've heard in a long long time A380 - I hope you were kidding there right? Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Yes i was... _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top BigTom Member Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 271 Location: Dubai, UAE Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: the_380 wrote: BigTom wrote: So what do you suggest, put all of us on boats and not allow us to fly? IMO IFEs only for the first class... That would mean configuring a/c differently for Gulf routes and other international. How workable would that be, considering that the competition like EK, EY, QR and UL will all have full entertainment options on their flights? Cheers Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: BigTom wrote: That would mean configuring a/c differently for Gulf routes and other international. How workable would that be, considering that the competition like EK, EY, QR and UL will all have full entertainment options on their flights? Well don't have much idea...but my conclusions are on the basis of hajj flights and many middle eastern flights in IC and AI that i've seen or heard _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top Jaysit Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:07 am    Post subject: Some of the Gulf bound passengers may be jhunglees with poor personal hygiene and even worse table manners, but they're sure as hell keeping the airlines profitable. They deserve the same service standards as anyone flying Delhi-JFK. I'm sure EK wouldn't mind changing a soiled seat cover as long as the slave flights to Dubai are full. Airlines can also make cabin announcements on Gulf flights on how to use the loos (don't throw rubbish in the loo and use the flush), and provide warnings that anyone found tampering with the IFE will be liable. A recent skytrax report on AI express indicated that the AIX 738 was filthy from lack of cabin maintenance, and that one of the windows had a thick brown film to which human hairs were stuck. I suspect that someone with hair oil and unwashed hair fell asleep in the window seat with his/her head on the window. But there is no law against that practice, vile as it may be, nor should there be one. Ultimately, its the airline's responsibility in cleaning up an aircraft after a flight. And that includes hair oil smudges. Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Jaysit there's a heaven and hell differences in the finances of EK and the indian operators. EK can think of purchasing 43 Airbus A380s and not be sure where to operate them, our carriers don't have that potential _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top Jaysit Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: the_380 wrote: Jaysit there's a heaven and hell differences in the finances of EK and the indian operators. EK can think of purchasing 43 Airbus A380s and not be sure where to operate them, our carriers don't have that potential But all it takes is one person to come onboard after an AIX flight and wipe off coconut oil stains from windows. I don't see your point. Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Jaysit wrote: But all it takes is one person to come onboard after an AIX flight and wipe off coconut oil stains from windows. I don't see your point. Well definately you won't find that in your next 9W flight but it surely will cost a lot more in terms of maintenance to the airline _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top stealthpilot Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:09 am    Post subject: the_380 wrote: And what protection are you talking about? Nimish wrote: OMG - this must be the funniest statement I've heard in a long long time A380 - I hope you were kidding there right? the_380 wrote: Yes i was... I don’t think you were, but ok, if you say so. the_380 wrote: I can understand your point that IT was ready to shed out some more to experiment...but tell me one thing, your the CEO, you launch ABC-DEF flights and make good profits, will you stop that flight and start another flight to 'experiment' ??? Would you prefer pulling out a profit making sector or a loss making sector rather ?? Huh! If i were in management would i prefer pulling out a profit making sector An obvious answer would be no. The point is that doesnt have to be the only answer. Besides, you're forgetting one (actually many) things. How do you know they were making good profits? How do you know their new flights were an experiment? Heck they might be, they might not. Stop guessing and passing it off as fact. You asked me to give you some reasons why one airline would yank a route and another would take it. I gave you some reasons because you couldn’t think of any. Huh! the_380 wrote: Remember East-West, Damania ??? Did people predict that? Different scenario. That was oversupply and rapid expansion, kind of what is happening now. We’re talking about increased flights to the gulf in the long run.? There is no reason to predict that flights to the gulf will decrease. the_380 wrote: Then why publicize about it so much??? Just to attract investors?? Commitment to a route would make things easy for passengers, but why make it compulsory. Apart from the fact that you are anti-market, any reason? I don’t mean it should be an everyday occurrence for airlines to introduce routes and pull the plug in 3 days. But if they are stupid enough to waste money doing that then their fault. It takes time money and energy to launch a route and advertise it. If airlines start a route but realize they are losing money/want to discontinue it for whatever reason why stop them? There’s no reason to over regulate the market. _________________ eP007 Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:50 pm    Post subject: Quote: Besides, you're forgetting one (actually many) things. How do you know they were making good profits? How do you know their new flights were an experiment? Heck they might be, they might not. Stop guessing and passing it off as fact. Flights going with great loads, and besides there's a huge class of IT related people flying on daily basis from HYD to BBI. Quote: Commitment to a route would make things easy for passengers, but why make it compulsory. Apart from the fact that you are anti-market, any reason? I don’t mean it should be an everyday occurrence for airlines to introduce routes and pull the plug in 3 days. Then why announce in the first place ? _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Back to top stealthpilot Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject: the_380 wrote: Flights going with great loads, and besides there's a huge class of IT related people flying on daily basis from HYD to BBI. Loads aren’t everything. Besides like I said before, you/I know nothing about the conditions of the flight or why they dropped it. Forgive me for not trusting your numbers, but you thinking there’s enough IT demand between HYD and BBI doesn’t convince me. the_380 wrote: Then why announce in the first place ? Because they were foolish? I don’t know why they would. Announcing new destinations and yanking them repeatedly will not attract investors, it’s not that easy. I think we’ve hijacked this thread enough, Im done arguing about this with you. _________________ eP007 Back to top the_380 Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:44 pm    Post subject: stealthpilot wrote: Forgive me for not trusting your numbers, but you thinking there’s enough IT demand between HYD and BBI doesn’t convince me. Thats probably because you have no idea. I have seen the loads on two days (off season) and the flights were more than 80% full _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! 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