Airliners-India.com Flickr Group & Facebook    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  MoCA likely to abolish 20-aircraft fleet condition          Airliners-India.com Forum Index -> Civil Aviation View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message 747-237 Member Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 11353 Location: Gordon Gekko's Boardroom Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: MoCA likely to abolish 20-aircraft fleet condition http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/aviation-ministry-likely-to-abolish-20-aircraft-fleet-condition-113082600878_1.html Aviation ministry likely to abolish 20-aircraft fleet condition August 26, 2013 The ministry of civil aviation is planning to do away with a regulation which requires Indian carriers to have a fleet of 20 aircraft to commence international operations A senior official in the ministry said, “The clause that requires domestic airlines to have five years of business experience cannot be altered. But we are considering doing away with the requirement of having a fleet 20 aircraft to start international operations. There is no rationale for putting restrictions on fleet size at 20 aircraft.” _________________ 11000 posts (and counting) on Airliners-India. Back to top basheer1211 Member Joined: 28 Dec 2012 Posts: 271 Location: India Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: By the way, what is the rationale in having requirement of 5 years operation? Back to top TKMCE Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 957 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Immediate beneficiary ... Go Air... But to be fair this makes no sense.. Wonder whether DGCA did anything to help the pax of Bahrain Air who could not use their tickets because the airline went bust overnight. And why Bahrain Air, how about people who bought Kingfisher Airlines tickets but could not use them because the airline ceased operations??? Aren't they also waiting for refunds??? Back to top iah87 Member Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 2566 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: basheer1211 wrote: By the way, what is the rationale in having requirement of 5 years operation? Original rationale was to protect AI and then later Jet. There is no good rationale now except that the existing carriers do not want it relaxed. And now with 5 Indian carriers who have or can do international flights, there is no need to alter it. The existing carriers waited and so the newer ones should to. Back to top HAWK21M Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 8132 Location: Mumbai, INDIA Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Finally..... _________________ Think of the Brighter side !!! Back to top sri_bom Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 2365 Location: Singapore Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: India to ease five-year, 20 aircraft rule for international operations News 26-Sep-2013 11:41 AM India's Civil Aviation Ministry has reportedly moved a note to the Union Cabinet to abolish or ease current regulations which require airlines to operate five years domestically and have at least 20 aircraft in its fleet prior to expanding internationally (PTI, 25-Sep-2013). Back to top Spiderguy252 Member Joined: 10 Aug 2007 Posts: 4259 Location: Indian Ocean Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Too little too late. The horse has bolted the day before yesterday. _________________ Yeah. Back to top The_Goat Member Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 3260 Location: South of France Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Spiderguy252 wrote: Too little too late. The horse has bolted the day before yesterday. and the stables have been taken over by others as well..... _________________ I don't know which is the more pampered bunch : AI's widebodies (the aunties) or Jet's widebodies (the planes). -Jasepl Back to top basheer1211 Member Joined: 28 Dec 2012 Posts: 271 Location: India Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: P Chidambaram to support doing away with 5/20 aviation rule Finance Minister P Chidambaram today said he will support Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh in throwing out a rule that debars Indian carriers from flying abroad unless they complete five years of service. "If he (Ajit Singh) brings a paper to the Cabinet to throw out that rule (known as 5/20), I will support it strongly," Chidambaram told a Washington audience. He was responding to a question on this provision, which Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation (CAPA) in a recent report described as one of the "most damaging and discriminatory regulations." The aviation advisory and research firm in its report had argued that the finances of several Indian carriers would have been stronger if they were allowed to launch service on international routes earlier. A similar view was expressed by Ajit Singh this past week. "In the last week, the Minister for Civil Aviation, Ajit Singh, made a statement that he is reviewing the 5/20 rule. According to him, it is an absurd rule. That is what he said," Chidambaram said in response to a question at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a prestigious US-think tank. Singh had recently said that he is planning to go to the Cabinet to review the 5-20 rule, which makes it mandatory for an Indian airline to complete five years and have a fleet of at least 20 aircraft to start international flying. Back to top Nimish Member Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 9757 Location: Bangalore, India Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: ^^ So when everyone is in agreement, what's the delay? Is the Ministry waiting for suitcases from Air Asia/ SIA to help them decide? _________________ We miss you Nalini! Back to top HAWK21M Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 8132 Location: Mumbai, INDIA Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Look at it this way......who will be disapointed _________________ Think of the Brighter side !!! Back to top sri_bom Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 2365 Location: Singapore Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: India Ministry of Civil Aviation plans to abolish 5yr/20 fleet rule, further liberalise bilaterals News 23-Oct-2013 12:28 PM CAPA - Centre for Aviation, in its India Aviation Monitor, stated (22-Oct-2013) consensus has been reached within the government that the regulation which requires that Indian carriers must complete five years of domestic operations and have a minimum fleet size of 20 aircraft before being permitted to launch international services is damaging to India’s aviation interests. The report noted, "This discriminatory regulation is therefore expected to be lifted in the first half of Nov-13. Although there remains the prospect of a successful last minute challenge by certain interests to at least retain a 12-24 month qualification period. The government is also expected to announce a number of liberalised bilateral agreements in Nov-13 which could result in the entry of A380 services by carriers such as Emirates". Back to top ryder1650 Member Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 554 Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: sri_bom wrote: India Ministry of Civil Aviation plans to abolish 5yr/20 fleet rule, further liberalise bilaterals News 23-Oct-2013 12:28 PM CAPA - Centre for Aviation, in its India Aviation Monitor, stated (22-Oct-2013) consensus has been reached within the government that the regulation which requires that Indian carriers must complete five years of domestic operations and have a minimum fleet size of 20 aircraft before being permitted to launch international services is damaging to India’s aviation interests. The report noted, "This discriminatory regulation is therefore expected to be lifted in the first half of Nov-13. Although there remains the prospect of a successful last minute challenge by certain interests to at least retain a 12-24 month qualification period. The government is also expected to announce a number of liberalised bilateral agreements in Nov-13 which could result in the entry of A380 services by carriers such as Emirates". Looks like Tata was able to do what Mallya could not? Back to top ssbmat Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710 Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: sri_bom wrote: India Ministry of Civil Aviation plans to abolish 5yr/20 fleet rule, further liberalise bilaterals News 23-Oct-2013 12:28 PM CAPA - Centre for Aviation, in its India Aviation Monitor, stated (22-Oct-2013) consensus has been reached within the government that the regulation which requires that Indian carriers must complete five years of domestic operations and have a minimum fleet size of 20 aircraft before being permitted to launch international services is damaging to India’s aviation interests. The report noted, "This discriminatory regulation is therefore expected to be lifted in the first half of Nov-13. Although there remains the prospect of a successful last minute challenge by certain interests to at least retain a 12-24 month qualification period. The government is also expected to announce a number of liberalised bilateral agreements in Nov-13 which could result in the entry of A380 services by carriers such as Emirates". Wow, looks like Emirates has really pumped in the cash into the coffers of the party. If A380s start coming in, they might as well wind up Air India. Back to top me111993 Member Joined: 04 Sep 2009 Posts: 3225 Location: MAA/AMD Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: ssbmat wrote: sri_bom wrote: India Ministry of Civil Aviation plans to abolish 5yr/20 fleet rule, further liberalise bilaterals News 23-Oct-2013 12:28 PM CAPA - Centre for Aviation, in its India Aviation Monitor, stated (22-Oct-2013) consensus has been reached within the government that the regulation which requires that Indian carriers must complete five years of domestic operations and have a minimum fleet size of 20 aircraft before being permitted to launch international services is damaging to India’s aviation interests. The report noted, "This discriminatory regulation is therefore expected to be lifted in the first half of Nov-13. Although there remains the prospect of a successful last minute challenge by certain interests to at least retain a 12-24 month qualification period. The government is also expected to announce a number of liberalised bilateral agreements in Nov-13 which could result in the entry of A380 services by carriers such as Emirates". Wow, looks like Emirates has really pumped in the cash into the coffers of the party. If A380s start coming in, they might as well wind up Air India. I'm pretty sure that EK doesn't want 380 services to India, its all LH, and maybe, big maybe seasonally BA, EK manages 2:30 min 380 flights to only 2 places, JED and RUH, both because they go absolutely 100% packed. Ofcourse, they won't mind having the option of a 380 service in the future. _________________ Causal Determinism : We are hardwired to need answers. The Caveman who heard a rustle in the bushes and checked out to see what it was, lived longer than the guy, who assumed it was just a breeze. - Greg House Back to top jasepl Member Joined: 26 Jul 2008 Posts: 4257 Location: bund-bay Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: me111993 wrote: I'm pretty sure that EK doesn't want 380 services to India, its all LH, and maybe, big maybe seasonally BA, EK manages 2:30 min 380 flights to only 2 places, JED and RUH, both because they go absolutely 100% packed. Ofcourse, they won't mind having the option of a 380 service in the future. Actually, with LH, as things stand, adding a bigger aircraft on one flight is hardly going to change things in any meaningful way. So at most LH might think it nice if they could deploy the 380 on FRA-DEL, I doubt they're losing too much sleep over it or sending suitcases to anyone or letting that come in the way of anything. Ditto BA, though their 380s are all pretty much spoken for anyway. EK, on the other hand, I see sending 380s to a few cities in India. It's a good way to utilise the aircraft in between long-haul turns, and several airlines do use their 380s on similar or shorter routes for the same purpose. It also frees up 330s/777s to use elsewhere. Besides, they can fill the planes. And even if they can't, they've proved a point (which is Dubai's entire raison d'etre anyway). _________________ four years free of jetya punti! Back to top avbuff Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031 Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: jasepl wrote: me111993 wrote: I'm pretty sure that EK doesn't want 380 services to India, its all LH, and maybe, big maybe seasonally BA, EK manages 2:30 min 380 flights to only 2 places, JED and RUH, both because they go absolutely 100% packed. Ofcourse, they won't mind having the option of a 380 service in the future. Actually, with LH, as things stand, adding a bigger aircraft on one flight is hardly going to change things in any meaningful way. So at most LH might think it nice if they could deploy the 380 on FRA-DEL, I doubt they're losing too much sleep over it or sending suitcases to anyone or letting that come in the way of anything. Ditto BA, though their 380s are all pretty much spoken for anyway. EK, on the other hand, I see sending 380s to a few cities in India. It's a good way to utilise the aircraft in between long-haul turns, and several airlines do use their 380s on similar or shorter routes for the same purpose. It also frees up 330s/777s to use elsewhere. Besides, they can fill the planes. And even if they can't, they've proved a point (which is Dubai's entire raison d'etre anyway). Actually, LH is the most desperate airline to get the A380 to India, among all the A380 operators. To the point that it was a negotiating point for India to get AI into Star Alliance (and still is). They have begged, pleaded and implored to the Indian Govt. to let the A380 operate to India, however nothing has fructified so far. And of course with the "violation" of bilaterals the babus have LH balls in India's hands which is why you don't see them making too much noise about the A380. The Indian babus have done the unthinkable, got the ever efficient German bureaucrats on their knees. It is LH, yes I repeat, it is LH now who are asking AI to join Star now; whereas AI was never and never will be interested in joining Star Alliance. The deciding factor will now be some suitcases. Back to top Nimish Member Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 9757 Location: Bangalore, India Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: avbuff wrote: Actually, LH is the most desperate airline to get the A380 to India, among all the A380 operators. To the point that it was a negotiating point for India to get AI into Star Alliance (and still is). They have begged, pleaded and implored to the Indian Govt. to let the A380 operate to India, however nothing has fructified so far. And of course with the "violation" of bilaterals the babus have LH balls in India's hands which is why you don't see them making too much noise about the A380. The Indian babus have done the unthinkable, got the ever efficient German bureaucrats on their knees. It is LH, yes I repeat, it is LH now who are asking AI to join Star now; whereas AI was never and never will be interested in joining Star Alliance. The deciding factor will now be some suitcases. Couple of points Ojas: 1. LH was initially looking at the 380 only for FRA-DEL, is that still the case or are there other cities also in the wishlist? 2. AI was desperate to join *A - witness the frequent visits to FRA, statements from AI + MoCA etc. 3. I don't think LH/ UA are chasing AI as yet - though I don't know why not 4. Given the state of AI (perpetual loss making etc., already paid a bunch of money to *A), I wonder why they are not grabbing the opportunity to board an alliance now? 9W had similar megalomaniac intentions a few years ago, and we know what they've been reduced to now. So if LH is indeed looking to let AI join *A, why is AI not jumping at the opportunity? _________________ We miss you Nalini! Back to top avbuff Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031 Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Nimish wrote: avbuff wrote: Actually, LH is the most desperate airline to get the A380 to India, among all the A380 operators. To the point that it was a negotiating point for India to get AI into Star Alliance (and still is). They have begged, pleaded and implored to the Indian Govt. to let the A380 operate to India, however nothing has fructified so far. And of course with the "violation" of bilaterals the babus have LH balls in India's hands which is why you don't see them making too much noise about the A380. The Indian babus have done the unthinkable, got the ever efficient German bureaucrats on their knees. It is LH, yes I repeat, it is LH now who are asking AI to join Star now; whereas AI was never and never will be interested in joining Star Alliance. The deciding factor will now be some suitcases. Couple of points Ojas: 1. LH was initially looking at the 380 only for FRA-DEL, is that still the case or are there other cities also in the wishlist? 2. AI was desperate to join *A - witness the frequent visits to FRA, statements from AI + MoCA etc. 3. I don't think LH/ UA are chasing AI as yet - though I don't know why not 4. Given the state of AI (perpetual loss making etc., already paid a bunch of money to *A), I wonder why they are not grabbing the opportunity to board an alliance now? 9W had similar megalomaniac intentions a few years ago, and we know what they've been reduced to now. So if LH is indeed looking to let AI join *A, why is AI not jumping at the opportunity? 1. FRA - DEL/BOM absolutely 100%; not other stations. 2. No it was projected that way. Star Approached AI, AI thought it's a good thing ... tried to work towards it ... f**kd up miserably .... but net result they couldn't care less if they are star or no star. 3. LH is chasing AI not UA. And LH is doing it for all their ulterior motives. 4. to go into an alliance you have to go through the bureaucratic procedures. The babus don't understand any shit of it; earlier it was just a measure to siphon off crores under the pretext of joining star ...read: AI - IC merger. Though I say it's a good thing they merged. Back to top Nimish Member Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 9757 Location: Bangalore, India Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: avbuff wrote: 1. FRA - DEL/BOM absolutely 100%; not other stations. Interesting that you think BOM is 100% as well - esp. given that BOM is relegated to the 744, with no sign of the 748. Personally I have my doubts about BOM getting the 380 (esp. since the MUC flight is approx. the same timing as well), but would be happy to be wrong. avbuff wrote: 3. LH is chasing AI (...). And LH is doing it for all their ulterior motives. This goes completely against pretty much every news article and LH statement we've heard for the past year or two (after THAT fateful July 31st deadline)... _________________ We miss you Nalini! Back to top avbuff Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031 Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Nimish wrote: avbuff wrote: 1. FRA - DEL/BOM absolutely 100%; not other stations. Interesting that you think BOM is 100% as well - esp. given that BOM is relegated to the 744, with no sign of the 748. Personally I have my doubts about BOM getting the 380 (esp. since the MUC flight is approx. the same timing as well), but would be happy to be wrong. I was given to understand that the apron movements on the passenger end was a problem for the B748. The LH India manager cited Infrastructural constraints given they come at the peak of the international movement at BOM. Having said that from a business pperspective LH would want to bring int he A380 more as an aggressive business move rather than the justifying traffic. 8F/98J on their A380 would really boost their sales up given EK is poaching much of their premium clientele. Nimish wrote: avbuff wrote: 3. LH is chasing AI (...). And LH is doing it for all their ulterior motives. This goes completely against pretty much every news article and LH statement we've heard for the past year or two (after THAT fateful July 31st deadline)... LH tried to do a Canada in India, but have burnt their fingers and hands in the process. After the two year deadline in itself LH should have ditched AI, but then dumping AI at the orgasmic point infuriated to the govt. to extreme levels. Which was wrong on LHs part (Not that AI is any better but saying). So in a typical babu style "Acha humein star se nikala ..... ab A380 ke liye aa ...... chati ka doodh yaad dila denge" And that is precisely what happened and the Germans are on their knees in front of our babus (Who would've thought???!) Back to top iah87 Member Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 2566 Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Nimish wrote: avbuff wrote: 1. FRA - DEL/BOM absolutely 100%; not other stations. Interesting that you think BOM is 100% as well - esp. given that BOM is relegated to the 744, with no sign of the 748. Personally I have my doubts about BOM getting the 380 (esp. since the MUC flight is approx. the same timing as well), but would be happy to be wrong. avbuff wrote: 3. LH is chasing AI (...). And LH is doing it for all their ulterior motives. This goes completely against pretty much every news article and LH statement we've heard for the past year or two (after THAT fateful July 31st deadline)... In my opinion, LH is looking for FRA-DEL only for 380 operations. When they cannot consistently fill the existing 744 to BOM, why will they go for 380. EK however wants to use 380 to India, but currently only DEL and HYD are viable, they would love to fly to BOM but it has issues with congestion, and I am not sure if BLR has enough traffic to DXB for a 380. MAA is a good candidate but at this time the airport is not yet ready for a 380. Back to top HAWK21M Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 8132 Location: Mumbai, INDIA Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: When is this 20 Aircraft rule likely to be lifted. _________________ Think of the Brighter side !!! 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