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Jeh
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Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Posts: 658
Location: Delhi, India

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aseem wrote:
my serious suggestion to Jeh to be careful of other member's sentiments on this forum, and still convey his point. we take serious note of it and there are a few member whose mature writing he can learn from.....

you can be frank about your opinion and still not offend anybody.


Your forum has an admirable 'search' function in the top right corner that allowed me to fish this out using the simple search term 'child'. Allow me to paste excerpts from a past thread (details below too) from posts by member Jaysit. These are some examples of his polite quotes in an argument:

"Dear child, either you didn't understand a word..."

"Either way, the glop you post would make you the laughing stock of the FInance ministry and/or any financial institution..."

"Grow up, get an education, learn something, get a job and earn some money. And by getting a job I don't mean using your AI connections to land yourself a "Baap-daada aur beta" job at AI"

"Exactly, but even a concept as basic as this one eludes that poor child, even after its been repeated ad infinitum by others..."

"Hope I have succeeded somewhat in educating you..."


Now there was certainly no public criticism of Jaysit on the forum, as far as I remember reading, well at least not on that thread's page, because that's what I read. Evidently, Aseem, these rules apply to some members and not to others. Man, I love your complete lack of bias Laughing

My problem is not with Jaysit - he may well have been justified in saying what he did to Phadnis, who was rambling on with some curious economic theory that may or may not have made sense. I'm concerned with the parallels with my own case here - in fact, Jaysit grew nasty in the course of the argument, although Phadnis (at least on the page I've seen) didn't provoke him personally. Whatever Phadnis said to provoke him, Jaysit's indiscretions should have been equally criticised by the moderators as mine are being criticised, right? me111993 (I'm obeying you, me111993, although your username's a pain to type out. Ctrl-C Ctrl-V it is! Look at mine, three letters and it's over! Smile ) poked his nose into matters that did not concern him and had the temerity to tell me to "Stop the personal attacks" when it was none of his business. Hence, I was a tad harsher on him.

Look at my argument with avbuff now - we disagree, but it's all entirely reasonable, cordial, polite and (or so I think) mature, and he doesn't poke his nose into something that doesn't concern him, or lecture me on forum practices. I'm not incapable of a polite argument, but some people are Rolling Eyes Just that they're on the right side of the fence

The thread URLs are here btw:

http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?p=76388#76388

http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=7654&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=280
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avbuff
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh wrote:
Now there was certainly no public criticism of Jaysit on the forum, as far as I remember reading, well at least not on that thread's page, because that's what I read. Evidently, Aseem, these rules apply to some members and not to others. Man, I love your complete lack of bias Laughing

My problem is not with Jaysit - he may well have been justified in saying what he did to Phadnis, who was rambling on with some curious economic theory that may or may not have made sense. I'm concerned with the parallels with my own case here - in fact, Jaysit grew nasty in the course of the argument, although Phadnis (at least on the page I've seen) didn't provoke him personally. Whatever Phadnis said to provoke him, Jaysit's indiscretions should have been equally criticised by the moderators as mine are being criticised, right? me111993 (I'm obeying you, me111993, although your username's a pain to type out. Ctrl-C Ctrl-V it is! Look at mine, three letters and it's over! Smile ) poked his nose into matters that did not concern him and had the temerity to tell me to "Stop the personal attacks" when it was none of his business. Hence, I was a tad harsher on him.

Look at my argument with avbuff now - we disagree, but it's all entirely reasonable, cordial, polite and (or so I think) mature, and he doesn't poke his nose into something that doesn't concern him, or lecture me on forum practices. I'm not incapable of a polite argument, but some people are Rolling Eyes Just that they're on the right side of the fence

The thread URLs are here btw:

http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?p=76388#76388

http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=7654&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=280


Much of Phadnis' posts have been deleted which is why you were unable to read the actual nonsense he/she was blabbering around. FYI, he/she had not even spared abusing my family. But given you have an extremely sympathetic corner for him/her; Jaysit, myself and few others would be the top contenders for your to-hate list on the forum.

Getting back to this 'child'ish argument.

As far as I know there isn't any 'Do not disturb/No entry' rule in any section of a thread (except of course the moderation section where obviously only the mods are allowed) where a discussion is going on. So any one is allowed to 'poke his nose' as and when he wants and you too are entitled to that. So basically dismissing me11193 and that his handle is confusing/difficult to type are comments which are totally irrelevant. He has every right to comment on any post and express his opinions ( and so do you) and one need not to get hyper about this fact.
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Spiderguy252
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh, what is this thread about? Is it about member's ages, their usernames or forum etiquette? Or is it something else? Rolling Eyes

Sorry to blast this one back over at you, but don't poke your nose into things that are clearly not your business, in this case what Phadnis/Jaysit typed/didn't type once upon a time. If you cared that much, you should have hit 'Sign Up' earlier and given an opinion right when it was happening. Not now, weeks later after hijacking yet another thread!
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh, Yes - there have been uses of the word "beta" in the past, but the context is important to keep in mind. From memory - probably one of the most prolific users was Cougar - who is no longer active on these forums.

Also - I suggest a quick glance at the rules of the forum (if you've not already done so), and please make sure you report any violation of the rules of the forum to the mods ASAP so we can review and take appropriate action. It's very easy to point fingers at mods (and may be justified in some cases), but remember, we are not magicians, and need your help to make this forum a better place. Once again - instead of merely pointing fingers, I'd appreciate your help in making sure we all follow the forum rules.
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avbuff wrote:
Much of Phadnis' posts have been deleted which is why you were unable to read the actual nonsense he/she was blabbering around. FYI, he/she had not even spared abusing my family. But given you have an extremely sympathetic corner for him/her; Jaysit, myself and few others would be the top contenders for your to-hate list on the forum.

Getting back to this 'child'ish argument.

As far as I know there isn't any 'Do not disturb/No entry' rule in any section of a thread (except of course the moderation section where obviously only the mods are allowed) where a discussion is going on. So any one is allowed to 'poke his nose' as and when he wants and you too are entitled to that. So basically dismissing me11193 and that his handle is confusing/difficult to type are comments which are totally irrelevant. He has every right to comment on any post and express his opinions ( and so do you) and one need not to get hyper about this fact.


There is no rule here that allows insults if they are made in retaliation. I'm not usually interested in what's going on with other members and I otherwise wouldn't argue with my punishment, but I do think that if public criticism and deletion of my posts is considered valid by the Moderators, then it's grossly unfair that Jaysit faced no such problem in that thread. And if you're not going to punish him (there is no rule that says punishment cannot be allowed with retrospective effect) then don't criticise me! Is that not preferential treatment, if some chaps can say what they like, and the rest of us must toe the line? I have no problem with strict Moderation - as long as it is strict for all. My posts were deleted in their entirety - Jaysit's stay as they are. Am I not entitled to point out and complain about the discrepancy?

My point is not "Don't punish me". My point is "If you're punishing me, punish the others too, or it begins to look a little biased and suspicious". Get it?

And now for my friend Spiderguy252, who makes random allegations about me and who still hasn't provided the forum with any proof to substantiate these allegations:

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Jeh, what is this thread about? Is it about member's ages, their usernames or forum etiquette? Or is it something else?

Sorry to blast this one back over at you, but don't poke your nose into things that are clearly not your business, in this case what Phadnis/Jaysit typed/didn't type once upon a time. If you cared that much, you should have hit 'Sign Up' earlier and given an opinion right when it was happening. Not now, weeks later after hijacking yet another thread!


You, sweety, ought to read what I post before you respond to it. It might help your comments make a little sense. Read my posts, write when you're sober, and we'll try again.

I shall now repeat: There is no rule that allows for retaliatory insults. There is no rule that prohibits retrospective punishment to members. In the interests of fairness, I request you to either restore my posts as they were, or punish Jaysit sufficiently. And punish avbuff while you're at it - I almost forgot he was into a scrap with Phadnis too until he pointed it out up here. Once avbuff himself mentioned he'd been involved, I went back into the AI News and AI Turnaround threads and gosh! you should read the sort of discussions those three angels had, the language! Phadnis, avbuff and Jaysit had a right little party going on in those AI threads, and seeing as how Phadnis, like COUGAR, "is no longer active on these forums" as Nimish cunningly puts it (I presume this is a euphemism for "we banned the b*****d"?), I assume he was punished accordingly. But seeing as avbuff and Jaysit have been fairly "active" on the forum since then too, doesn't that indicate they have not been punished?

I woudn't even have bothered arguing with you lot because what happened in the past doesn't usually concern me, but the hue and cry about my use of the word "child" to refer to someone younger than I made me search the forum for previous usages, and thus this little can of worms opened up. And Nimish! I'm shocked to see your level of involvement, as also your snide comments and blatant insults, in the Air India News thread! It made for very enlightening reading for about 20 mins. It's foolish to expect you to punish yourself (what the heck you refuse to punish your cronies, you ain't never going to punish yourself!) but this comment I picked up just now from your forum archives is interesting. It has been made by our wrinkled, experienced voice of wisdom - me111993.

"
Ojas, phandis and Nimish, you are very senior members and such irresponsible comments are not appretiated or expected from you guys.

"
If so, lookie here, Nimish! me111993 has put your behaviour on par with that of a member who was banned! I'd say that's food for thought, Nimish. It means you behaved just as badly as the other two naughty boys, and especially just as badly as a member who was evidently banned.

My point is simple - if you delete my posts, punish those three, Jaysit, Nimish and avbuff, to a far, far greater degree. It is only fair. Retrospective punishment is not an issue, IMHO.

I did not start this. I was responding to jasepl, me111993 tried to sermonise, I put him in his place, and then you lot ganged up on me and deleted my post. I always knew I should have expected this - after COUGAR, Phadnis and karatecatman (the NACIL supporters) were thrown out, I should have expected it would be only a matter of time before you lot ganged up on me for being a pro-NACIL voice on the forum. I just didn't think it'd happen so quickly Smile
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avbuff
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Jeh

Few facts that you have conveniently forgot.

* COUGAR has abused Air India more then myself and all other members combined, right from the crew to the management. He himself used to say shut this crap (AI), sell it, shut this airline right away and what not. Every member from that generation will validate this.

* That basket-case Phadnis had crossed his line and started personal attacks. Tomorrow, in a hypothetical situation, I abuse your father or mother or any immediate family member; how will you react? Phadnis was nothing but an ugly pig showing his bravery behind the computer screen.

* KCM was never sanctioned.

* Our offensive posts have been deleted too, maybe the mods forgot to clear all of them. Besides, that was the first time ever I got into an ugly fight with anyone of the 3.5 years I have been on this forum.

* Jaysit had been sanctioned twice by the moderators for violating the rules. Besides, Jaysit, myself also give AI its due when they deserve it. (read: AIX starts MCT/AUH - ATQ; Jaysit's experience on AI flights)

* The moderators on this forum do a fine job, having been in their shoes for 6 months I know what a task it is. I applaud them.

By the manner you are vociferously advocating Phadnis, I'm not surprised that you are seeing him as your messiah.
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Spiderguy252
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh wrote:
My point is not "Don't punish me". My point is "If you're punishing me, punish the others too, or it begins to look a little biased and suspicious". Get it?


I'm sorry, but what "punishment" have you received? Once we do punish you, we'll take your consideration of punishing others as well, or else it will begin "to look a little biased and suspicious". Laughing

Jeh wrote:
But seeing as avbuff and Jaysit have been fairly "active" on the forum since then too, doesn't that indicate they have not been punished?


What's your problem, Phadnis? er.....Jeh? Wink

Jeh wrote:
I always knew I should have expected this - after COUGAR, Phadnis and karatecatman (the NACIL supporters) were thrown out, I should have expected it would be only a matter of time before you lot ganged up on me for being a pro-NACIL voice on the forum. I just didn't think it'd happen so quickly Smile


It so happens that the pro-NACIL members are the ones who flare up when AI is criticized so it appears as if there is a heavy bias against them. Digest that.

avbuff wrote:
* Our offensive posts have been deleted too, maybe the mods forgot to clear all of them. Besides, that was the first time ever I got into an ugly fight with anyone of the 3.5 years I have been on this forum.


It looks like Jeh knew very well what those deleted posts were Smile

Jeh, instead of buggering me for proof on your real identity, why don't you do so yourself? I mean, it's becoming so obvious already!
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Last edited by Spiderguy252 on Tue May 04, 2010 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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me111993
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@jeh, I'd like to clarify one thing here,
The post I made requesting Ojas, Nimish and Phadnis to stop making irresponsible comments was primarily directed towards Phadnis, as soon as I made that post, I sent out PM's to both Ojas and Nimish clarifying the same, and I guess, most members knowing Ojas and Nimish well enough, this was very clear to them too...
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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about members Identifying themselves & proceeding to debate.It would end the who-is-who.

Also The Member list should be rescreened & only persons who can Identify themselves [at least to the mods] should be admitted as members.

Finally,the Mods need to spend more time on monitoring posts & controlling the forum,If personal time is an issue,make way for someone else who can dedicate more time & be fair to the job.

Members having an issue with the forum running & keen on improving matters should come forward & volunteer for a rotational mod/permenant mods position & devote valuable time to it.
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Spiderguy252
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAWK21M wrote:
Members having an issue with the forum running & keen on improving matters should come forward & volunteer for a rotational mod/permenant mods position & devote valuable time to it.


Well, last time we had called for a rotational mod nobody stepped forward and so I had to continue for another 6-month period. Our next rotational mod election is in July, and we're hoping that after this episode some members might step up to the role next time around.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAWK21M wrote:
How about members Identifying themselves & proceeding to debate.It would end the who-is-who.

Contradicts the nature of the open internet - this is not a critical (say income tax refund portal) where the cost of identifying/ verifying members can be recovered in some way. Yes - members should identify themselves on the members intro thread, but many members prefer (for perfectly valid reasons) to stay anonymous.

HAWK21M wrote:
Also The Member list should be rescreened & only persons who can Identify themselves [at least to the mods] should be admitted as members.

Again - this is not possible on a free internet forum. it's not even possible on a paid forum like airliners.net!

HAWK21M wrote:
Finally,the Mods need to spend more time on monitoring posts & controlling the forum,If personal time is an issue,make way for someone else who can dedicate more time & be fair to the job.

Again - not possible to monitor all posts 24X7. We're not running a top-secret classified defense system here.

As far as making way for someone else and be "fair to the job" - that's absurd (in this context), as there is no expectation that any mod will spend "more time on monitoring posts and controlling the forum". And we already have a rotational mod system, however again - nobody can be expected to monitor this forum 24X7X365, so lets set reasonable expectations here.

HAWK21M wrote:
Members having an issue with the forum running & keen on improving matters should come forward & volunteer for a rotational mod/permenant mods position & devote valuable time to it.

This is your only point I actually agree with. The rest are impossible (IMHO) and not needed (IMHO) on this forum.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh wrote:
I did not start this. I was responding to jasepl, me111993 tried to sermonise, I put him in his place, and then you lot ganged up on me and deleted my post. I always knew I should have expected this - after COUGAR, Phadnis and karatecatman (the NACIL supporters) were thrown out, I should have expected it would be only a matter of time before you lot ganged up on me for being a pro-NACIL voice on the forum. I just didn't think it'd happen so quickly Smile


Please - don't disrespect KCM by clubbing him with the likes of COUGAR, and Phadnis.

Side note: It's interesting that the vociferous pro-NACIL voices on the forum seem to be family members of employees of the airline. Thinking further about that (and trying to rationalize why that's the case) it seems like criticizing AI/ IC is akin to criticizing a member of their family, and hence they get all aggressive and abusive in return. However to the rest of the forum, NACIL is not "immediate family" and can be criticized and praised when appropriate, and I suspect this is where we start getting a huge seeming Anti-NACIL bias. Thoughts/ comments?
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AKLDELNonstop
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh - Get a f***k**g job! - and a life!
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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:


Side note: It's interesting that the vociferous pro-NACIL voices on the forum seem to be family members of employees of the airline. Thinking further about that (and trying to rationalize why that's the case) it seems like criticizing AI/ IC is akin to criticizing a member of their family, and hence they get all aggressive and abusive in return. However to the rest of the forum, NACIL is not "immediate family" and can be criticized and praised when appropriate, and I suspect this is where we start getting a huge seeming Anti-NACIL bias. Thoughts/ comments?


One can't generalise.....I doubt anyone knows that I too had a family member in AI,but I don't get aggressive & sensitive about it.
So lets be practical & not try to find a common cause thru wishfull thinking.It depends on the Individual.

On the points of monitoring threads 24x7,No one is suggesting that,but rather try looking at it from a members point of view.There is a dispute because a member senses a different rule for different people attitude,in some cases can be delibrate ,in some cases not & in some cases its the members thinking that working overtime.

Out here I've noticed that posters do not want to see a common view or consider the other persons view that differs.Its ok to debate but getting defensive when not agreed to is a problem on this forum.Thats when groups are formed & thereafter it gets tough to carry everyone along on a particular topic.

I keep in touch with Ex members of this forum & current members too.The common bonding being Aviation.The feed back is mainly a lot of unhappiness towards certain individuals,if true or not thats debatable.But its clear that Groups exist in my opinion.

Its Important to stay grounded & move towards making this site usefull.A good example is Devesh setting up the API group by getting most common interested folks under one banner.

Maybe one day We all learn to agree to disagree on topics & not based on who is qouting the topic.
There is nothing wrong in debate & having a different opinion on a topic,but how its conveyed accross is very important.

Most times it sinks to childish arguements & unrelated abuses or sarcastic replies that ultimetly ruin the thread.
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKLDELNonstop wrote:
Jeh - Get a f***k**g job! - and a life!


I happen to have both Smile
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiderguy252 wrote:
...


By "punishment", you know very well I mean deletion of my posts for usage of the word "child/beta" when interacting with a younger member. Considering I spend typing out a well-thought-out response, I consider that a form of punishment, if moderate. Plus public criticism of my posts by the chap in blue (Aseem) and demands that I "learn from more mature members". I was initially fine with that criticism, and even apologised for it. But then even sammyk jumped onto the bandwagon to criticise me, so I got a little annoyed and looked into your archives for usage of the word child, or synonyms associated with it. And I realised just how some people get away with bloody murder over here, whereas my post got deleted for a far smaller crime. Personally, I think telling a fellow member, however ignorant he may be, to ""Grow up, get an education, learn something, get a job and earn some money. And by getting a job I don't mean using your AI connections to land yourself a "Baap-daada aur beta" job at AI" is far more needlessly insulting than telling him he shouldn't speculate endlessly considering he's never been to Cairo and doesn't have a clue how Air India runs, and because he is a child. So if that is allowed, then why can't I say what I want?

Btw, considering you've finally concluded your allegations (for the time being) and clarified that you think I'm Phadnis, well that's fine isn't it? You can live on in your own illusion, and the rest of us can continue to live in reality Rolling Eyes Do notify me in case you think of any further intelligent conspiracy theories, by the way. I'd be delighted to hear them Rolling Eyes I thought we'd hit the rock bottom of weirdness on this forum when somebody accused me of being a front for karatecatman, but this is something entirely eccentric. And we accuse NACIL employees of being buffoons Rolling Eyes Evidently, no minimum-IQ entrance criterion exists in this 'rotating-mod' system. I should have guessed. And just in case you think three "rolling eyes" emoticons aren't proof enough of just what a load of WTF-provoking bullshit I think your theory is, here's a fourth one Rolling Eyes Comprendo?
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:
Please - don't disrespect KCM by clubbing him with the likes of COUGAR, and Phadnis.

Side note: It's interesting that the vociferous pro-NACIL voices on the forum seem to be family members of employees of the airline. Thinking further about that (and trying to rationalize why that's the case) it seems like criticizing AI/ IC is akin to criticizing a member of their family, and hence they get all aggressive and abusive in return. However to the rest of the forum, NACIL is not "immediate family" and can be criticized and praised when appropriate, and I suspect this is where we start getting a huge seeming Anti-NACIL bias. Thoughts/ comments?


Well, my friend's aunt used to work for AI, grand old lady, but she quit way back in the late '80s after she got married. And, of course, there's an old college mate who now works with Air India (my 'source' - sounds very karatecatmanlike Smile ). That's about as close as I've ever come to having friends/family working for Air India, or Indian Airlines, or NACIL, call it what you will.

Going with your line of argument, I'll offer a little anthropological explanation for it. I remember visiting my friend's house in Malcolm Baug when the said aunt was at his place and she was regaling us with stories about AI. I'd never flown much then (not many middle-class folk did in the '80s!) and I remember remarking how different life in AI actually was from what my outsider's idea of it was. Maybe this difference in understanding contributes to the friction between those who know how AI runs and what the employees go through, the conditions they work in (i.e. 'insiders' and family) and those who are only in a position to see the end result (often unfortunate incompetence) without quite knowing the chain of events that led to it - we just directly call the employees fools and get on with it without knowing what makes them act in a certain way.

And if you call employees "buffoons", "idiots" etc. then those who have close family working for AI naturally get offended a little - its a natural human reaction. Interestingly, the one member I'm pretty sure works for AI (Boeing7xx) does not take offence to such petty name-calling. But then again, as member avbuff has shown above, avbuff says he got offended when Phadnis said something about his mother. So you see, people often tend to get more offended when you insult their family than they do when you insult them!

Look, I have no personal problem with your forum - I just think it's unfair that some members are allowed to be as condescending/rude/patronizing as they wish, while I have to toe the line and be nice to all the members and type in a "mature" fashion without treading on anyone's toes. I think it's a little unfair. I request you to let me post with greater freedom, or make everybody face the same strict rules I face regarding posting.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh wrote:

We just directly call the employees fools and get on with it without knowing what makes them act in a certain way.

And if you call employees "buffoons", "idiots" etc. then those who have close family working for AI naturally get offended a little - its a natural human reaction.


OK - I now see this more clearly. Unfortunately this is going to be a tough problem to to crack, but we'll have to figure something out. I'm looking for suggestions...

Jeh wrote:
I just think it's unfair that some members are allowed to be as condescending/rude/patronizing as they wish, while I have to toe the line and be nice to all the members and type in a "mature" fashion without treading on anyone's toes. I think it's a little unfair. I request you to let me post with greater freedom, or make everybody face the same strict rules I face regarding posting.


Jeh - you seem like a reasonable chap. Let's not ponder too much over the past (simply because you were not there, so there's no point digging up parts of old posts without the full context), but on the present and the future. We have neither interest nor time to be full-time policeman for the forum, and hopefully not the need either. Lets stick to aviation and if you see any other member violating the rules, please dash a note off to the mods, and we'll be as fair as can be. While there is no intent to allow some members more leeway than others, ultimately those who contribute and build "credibility" will generally (and implicitly) be given some "benefit of the doubt" compared to someone whose first few posts on the forum are abusive/ counter productive (and I'm not in any way suggesting yours were, just pointing out why some older posts might have seemed discriminatory to you).
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avbuff
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh wrote:
Personally, I think telling a fellow member, however ignorant he may be, to ""Grow up, get an education, learn something, get a job and earn some money. And by getting a job I don't mean using your AI connections to land yourself a "Baap-daada aur beta" job at AI" is far more needlessly insulting than telling him he shouldn't speculate endlessly considering he's never been to Cairo and doesn't have a clue how Air India runs, and because he is a child. So if that is allowed, then why can't I say what I want?



Why is it that this particular episode irking you so much (this was directed to Phadnis)? Since you claim you have been around this site for years, you should very much be aware that much worse things were said by the NACIL detractors.


Last edited by avbuff on Thu May 06, 2010 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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me111993
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh Wrote
Quote:
And if you call employees "buffoons", "idiots" etc. then those who have close family working for AI naturally get offended a little - its a natural human reaction. Interestingly, the one member I'm pretty sure works for AI (Boeing7xx) does not take offence to such petty name-calling. But then again, as member avbuff has shown above, avbuff says he got offended when Phadnis said something about his mother. So you see, people often tend to get more offended when you insult their family than they do when you insult them!



Now, these are two very very different things
However pro-NACIL you may be, you've got to agree with me when I say that AI's condition, now-a-days isn't the best, and there has to be somebody resposible for it. If AI is an organisational failure, then it's the employees who have to take the blame, you can't criticize passengers for not flying AI, now can U? Calling employees Buffoons or idiots would never necessarily mean accusing someone's Father/Mother or Brother/Sister working for AI of being good for nothing or "Buffoons" or "Idiots", it was a term used for a collective purpose, they are blaming the organisation NOT Phadnis's relative who works for AI. And i'll tell you one thing, ANYONE would get offended if someone insults his/her mother.. Absoultely no questions asked about that!

Nimish Wrote
Quote:
While there is no intent to allow some members more leeway than others, ultimately those who contribute and build "credibility" will generally (and implicitly) be given some "benefit of the doubt" compared to someone whose first few posts on the forum are abusive/ counter productive (and I'm not in any way suggesting yours were, just pointing out why some older posts might have seemed discriminatory to you).


Exactly! If a member has been crystal clear on the forums for 2-3 years, then he/she will have very strong credentials. People will think twice before questioning this person.

me111993


[/b]
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Spiderguy252
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avbuff wrote:
Jeh wrote:
Personally, I think telling a fellow member, however ignorant he may be, to ""Grow up, get an education, learn something, get a job and earn some money. And by getting a job I don't mean using your AI connections to land yourself a "Baap-daada aur beta" job at AI" is far more needlessly insulting than telling him he shouldn't speculate endlessly considering he's never been to Cairo and doesn't have a clue how Air India runs, and because he is a child. So if that is allowed, then why can't I say what I want?



Why is it that this particular episode irking you so much (this was directed to Phadnis)? Since you claim you have been around this site for years, you should very much be aware that much worse things were said by the NACIL supporters.


Yes, why do you always hold short of answering this one? There have been a hundred other episodes involving AI bashing, name calling, etc. Why are you focussed only on this Phadnis issue?
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avbuff wrote:
Why is it that this particular episode irking you so much (this was directed to Phadnis)? Since you claim you have been around this site for years, you should very much be aware that much worse things were said by the NACIL detractors.


Look, I haven't been around this forum since the dawn of time - but I've been around a fair bit and I've read a few things here and there and got the general drift of things here. In case you've forgotten, the first point I raised pertained to karatecatman, not Phadnis. And I'm not particularly interested in what other people said in the past - I've explained in full and (IMHO) reasonable detail, how I stumbled upon this Battle of Magenta between the firebrand Phadnis and some others. I remembered reading parts of it a while back, but frankly speaking some of the posts were too long and I'd gotten bored back then. But rummaging through Search for usage of "child" (because I was more than a little surprised to see my posts deleted because of that word, I looked for precedent) really got me reading the full posts over again and I was surprised and annoyed at the leniency in Moderation compared to my case. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I am, in no way, demanding, or even requesting, for the reinstatement of Phadnis, like I asked for in karatecatman's case. Leave Phadnis to his/her own devices. I'm not even demanding that you punish those who fought with Phadnis. Where did you get that notion from?! All I am saying is, could somebody please explain the difference in standards of Moderation, and treat all members fairly? Is that an excessive demand?

Moreover, the Phadnis brawl is the most recent such fight I've read about on this forum.

Plus, I believe in giving proof when I make a statement (which is unlike, say, Spiderguy252, who shoots his mouth off before his brain has had time to catch up). My argument still has nothing to do with Phadnis - it has everything to do with the ability to address fellow forum members according to their ages if others have been allowed to do so before - I merely found proof of it in the Phadnis-related argument.

And anyway, aren't the Moderators always asking Members to find violations of forum rules and bring it to their notice? Well, I've been a conscientious member and done it. You, Spiderguy252, ought to thank me for covering your bottom and doing a job that's technically assigned to you. Let's say it in a chorus one last time - I stumbled on this Phadnis case by accident, not by design.

You guys have already forgotten I initially joined to ask for karatecatman's return - and yet you are suspicious about me because I 'cannot remember' older NACIL-related (I hate using this NACIL word by the way, it's such an irritating acronym) arguments? You've forgotten an argument I made barely a week or so ago, and you expect me to 'remember' arguments that happened between others, possibly ages ago? Pots calling the kettle black?
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

me111993 wrote:
However pro-NACIL you may be, you've got to agree with me when I say that AI's condition, now-a-days isn't the best, and there has to be somebody resposible for it. If AI is an organisational failure, then it's the employees who have to take the blame, you can't criticize passengers for not flying AI, now can U? Calling employees Buffoons or idiots would never necessarily mean accusing someone's Father/Mother or Brother/Sister working for AI of being good for nothing or "Buffoons" or "Idiots", it was a term used for a collective purpose, they are blaming the organisation NOT Phadnis's relative who works for AI. And i'll tell you one thing, ANYONE would get offended if someone insults his/her mother.. Absoultely no questions asked about that!

[/b]


Well, we'll agree to disagree, then. Look, I heard from my source about what really happened in Cairo with the AI crew, and then saw the lies printed in the news, and I was so indignant even though I have nothing to do with AI myself! So I can well imagine these people feeling sad and indignant when people insult AI employees just because it's fashionable. These people know what goes on behind the scenes at AI - you don't. Imagine your father worked as a salaried employee for a company where he tried hard to make a difference, but where all the top-level management was corrupt and administrative rot had set in, because of which, despite his best honest efforts, the company was sinking, because he was a small cog in a big, broken machine. Then a few brave upstarts behind a computer screen on airlinersindia start screaming "All employees of xyz company are buffoons and they are the reason xyz company is in a mess today" it'd be frustrating and saddening for you, too, and you'd react just like our AI fans. Being an AI employee is a thankless job today if you still believe in working hard. Be considerate, me111993, it is dfficult to empathise.

As an aside, could avbuff provide the context in which his mother was 'insulted' on this forum? I'm not demanding he provide me proof, but I am a little hesitant about trusting what he says after reading some of his posts in that 'ere slugfest between him and Phadnis - I assure you, avbuff did not emerge looking too squeaky clean. First of all I couldn't find any post that featured references to avbuff's mother, and from what I've gathered from my reading and from PMs, Phadnis seemed to me too well-read and sophisticated a sort to descend to insulting other forum members' mothers - has anyone especially read that 'Neptune' argument between him and Nimish and one of the others? I found it hilarious Laughing And loved Nimish' response too Very Happy All said and done, I'd like to hear what precisely was said to avbuff, because I find his story a little difficult to believe - "he said naughty-naughty things about my mummy" doesn't sound like avbuff's stock line Confused
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKLDELNonstop wrote:
Jeh - Get a f***k**g job! - and a life!


@ Nimish and Aseem and Spiderguy252: Er, excuse me, couldn't the Mods please pull this guy up for this offensive remark? I wasn't, in any way, addressing him, I have no idea who he is, and till I read this I didn't even know he existed. I'm not interested in whatever advice he has regarding my life choices, and if he must insist on shoving that advice down my gullet, could somebody please get him to clean up his language and try again?

To me, the sole purpose of this post seems to be the insult of a fellow member. Therefore, I think it's worthy of being brought to the Mods' attention.
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yash777
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

41 posts by Jeh and all in Venting 1 and 2 Laughing Laughing
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sammyk
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh, are you here to contribute to this board or just harp on old situations?

What has happened has happened, no one is going to get a "retro punishment" so there is no sense in asking for it. So why don't we move forward? If you come upon unfair situations from this point on then please send the mods an message immediately.
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yash777 wrote:
41 posts by Jeh and all in Venting 1 and 2 Laughing Laughing


sammyk wrote:
Jeh, are you here to contribute to this board or just harp on old situations?

What has happened has happened, no one is going to get a "retro punishment" so there is no sense in asking for it. So why don't we move forward? If you come upon unfair situations from this point on then please send the mods an message immediately.


@ Yash777: Well, here's No. 42 Rolling Eyes Any problem?

In barely a couple of posts have I raised any new points/complaints that led to the creation of the Venting threads. I've spent the rest of my time and posts repeating/explaining those initial points/complaints to Members too poorly educated to read/understand what I am saying. Then I keep having to fend off ludicrous allegations about my identity (that I am karatecatman, that I am Phadnis, that I am COUGAR, that I am Attila the Hun and so on and so forth). So I keep having to return to the Venting thread to clear the air everytime somebody says something nasty about me (and mind you, it is invariably nasty and personally insulting, even though I have never addressed the member before). I even bothered to rummage through your archives to give you proof of why I shouldn't have been punished - I don't whine unnecessarily. I've spent the last few posts trying to explain the mentality of the AI supporters, which I hope will somewhat ease the tension on this forum between those who feel for AI and those who don't - I think that's quite a contribution, and very relevant to the climate on the forum. Even Nimish acknowledged it.

So what is your problem, sammyk? How many effing times do I have to tell you sods that I'm not interested per se in that old battle between Phadnis and the others, or between anyone and anyone. I merely used that as proof/evidence to support the claim that I had been dealt with a little harshly. Then I requested that either the same leniency be shown to me or other members be made to toe the line, and I said theoretically even retrospective punishment was possible - it's not my problem, sammyk, if you're not educated enough to understand the rules. There is no rule that says that after a certain time period has elapsed since the offence, the culprit cannot be punished

See, I have made the same point over and over and over again and still some dunderheaded coconuts on here don't understand and say "But why do you just complain"? - well WTF I don't just complain! I only complained on a couple of occasions since I joined, about perceived discrepancies, and I've spent the remainder of the '42 posts' repeating the same points. I have also written on a few occasions in the Civil Aviation thread and shared a small piece of inside information regarding the AI crew problem in Cairo, and am in a position to share more, but you will ignore those posts and only look at my posts in this thread because you're genetically inclined to ignore the positive side of somebody. And that's not my problem, it's yours.

Everytime I log onto the site I first need to scroll down and deal with all the attacks on me in Site Related, because if you're going to keep attacking me and question my identity, then I'm going to have to keep defending myself over and over again, and I'm going to do that whether its 41 posts of 441 posts in the Venting thread. And like all the rest of us, I have a job and come here only in my spare time, but all my spare time is eaten up in individually responding to the attacks on me in the Venting thread and I have no time left to scroll up to the other forum pages and contribute there!
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avbuff
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeh wrote:
As an aside, could avbuff provide the context in which his mother was 'insulted' on this forum? I'm not demanding he provide me proof, but I am a little hesitant about trusting what he says after reading some of his posts in that 'ere slugfest between him and Phadnis - I assure you, avbuff did not emerge looking too squeaky clean. First of all I couldn't find any post that featured references to avbuff's mother, and from what I've gathered from my reading and from PMs, Phadnis seemed to me too well-read and sophisticated a sort to descend to insulting other forum members' mothers - has anyone especially read that 'Neptune' argument between him and Nimish and one of the others? I found it hilarious Laughing And loved Nimish' response too Very Happy All said and done, I'd like to hear what precisely was said to avbuff, because I find his story a little difficult to believe - "he said naughty-naughty things about my mummy" doesn't sound like avbuff's stock line Confused


Wow you PMed Phadnis to get all of this? Amazing!

His comments started with my background and extended it down to my family members, I guess this much is enough for you to know.
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Jeh
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avbuff wrote:
Wow you PMed Phadnis to get all of this? Amazing!

His comments started with my background and extended it down to my family members, I guess this much is enough for you to know.


Er, what on earth are you talking about? When did I say I PMed Phadnis to ask him any of this? I'm talking about the observations and analyses of other members regarding the character Phadnis, which I received via PM from those members. I am not in contact with Phadnis - be it by MSN/Yahoo/Gmail/site PMs/two strings and a coconut etc.

Anyway what you two discussed privately is none of my business, so I'm sorry for poking my nose into that. My curiosity got the better of me Embarassed I'll take care to stick to the parallels between the case and mine


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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its time to forget the past & concentrate on the present.
By qouting past mistakes,one & will find many & this will lead to future arguements on past topics.

There is a possibility tht modsmay not have noticed a particular post for obvious reasons,but if pointed out to them,appropriate action would be taken,if not so it could be raised.But a mistake in the past does not provide clearence for another similiar mistake in the present by another member.

About Jeh posting 41+ posts in Two threads,that is not an issue,A member will obviously post in a thread that interests that member.

About A member posting under a different user name would not be appropriate if true,but how is this to be proved.

My suggestion would be to move on from date & improve the functioning of this site.

Of ex members returning to this fold or not cannot be determined by anyone but the member concerned.So lets leave it to them.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mods have delete a few posts on this thread that were in appropriate for the forum.

Regards
Nimish
On behalf of the AI mods.
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TKMCE
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Farewell Reply with quote

KCM has now got company! One more person is leaving fed up with things here.

ME!!!!

Those of you here who know me well enough also know how to continue to keep in touch


Cheers
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sammyk
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKMCE, that is unfortunate.

However, I must ask. What is the complaint? Since this is a "venting" thread then why not just put it all out on the table?

Everyone who complains or leaves this forum always give some vague reason or says that they receive complaints from other members behind the scenes.

Why not just tell us up front? We certainly don't want anyone to leave. If there is a problem, tell us! We're certainly willing to adjust our moderation methods if there is a problem but if no one tells us how can we do anything about it?

Also, as you all know there are as many opinions out there as there are people. We all know the saying. There are also people here of different levels of experience. Some are industry veterans, some are relatives of those in the industry, some are those who have no connection to the industry and just have a love for aviation. We should all be learning from each other. The experienced members should not be looking down the inexperienced and the inexperienced should respect the knowledge the experienced members bring.

So please, tell us what's wrong and we'll try to fix it!
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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why Rajeev.
Whats the reason.
regds
MEL.
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Aseem
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Rajeev we should know the reason!
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TKMCE
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK

Since the request has come for a couple of the people here I have the highest regard for, all I will say is one of the moderators here has been passed on a message why some of us feel so frustrated and are either leaving or keeping quiet.

I also publicly state that I do not have any confidence in the maturity level of this particular moderator and for that reason I am also publicly requesting that the information which was passed on as a private message to him remains just that PRIVATE! All the same it may be rather illuminating for the other three of you to know the contents which hopefully will be PRIVATELY shared by the person to whom it has been passed on!


Cheers
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Spiderguy252
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKMCE wrote:
OK

Since the request has come for a couple of the people here I have the highest regard for, all I will say is one of the moderators here has been passed on a message why some of us feel so frustrated and are either leaving or keeping quiet.

I also publicly state that I do not have any confidence in the maturity level of this particular moderator and for that reason I am also publicly requesting that the information which was passed on as a private message to him remains just that PRIVATE! All the same it may be rather illuminating for the other three of you to know the contents which hopefully will be PRIVATELY shared by the person to whom it has been passed on!


Cheers


Oh please. "Maturity" in maturity level was a typo, I presume?

Rolling Eyes

TKMCE wrote:
Anybody can say anything here I know and the post here is by the resident EXPERT but how about providing a source to substantiate his claims!!!!


TKMCE wrote:
Awaiting Mr EXPERT to substantiate his claims about good yields on MAA KUL.


TKMCE wrote:
No source to substantiate but I guess like Mr EXPERT I can also post here based on speculation Laughing


TKMCE wrote:
Good to know there are people other than teeny weeny bopper experts around here as well.
Laughing
Cheers


TKMCE wrote:
Quote:
To put this in perspective, while there are spikes on fares on certain sectors, overall the fares in domestic is quite low. About 12 years ago, on HYD-DEL, I paid Rs. 8000 on Jet Airways (booking about a week in advance) and now the fares are Rs. 3500 to 5000 (booking a week in advance).



One of the most sensible comments to have appeared in these forums for a long time (a place where common sense nowadays seems to be in very short supply)!

WELL DONE SIR!!!


And for the record, I have already shared the "startling", "revealing" and "illuminating" contents of that message with the other mods the moment you sent it.

So what else do you want to talk about?
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sammyk
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKMCE wrote:
OK

Since the request has come for a couple of the people here I have the highest regard for, all I will say is one of the moderators here has been passed on a message why some of us feel so frustrated and are either leaving or keeping quiet.

I also publicly state that I do not have any confidence in the maturity level of this particular moderator and for that reason I am also publicly requesting that the information which was passed on as a private message to him remains just that PRIVATE! All the same it may be rather illuminating for the other three of you to know the contents which hopefully will be PRIVATELY shared by the person to whom it has been passed on!


Cheers


Is this a new message you have sent?

I hope there are enough details in it so that we can look to improve things around here and bring back those that have left and have those that remain quiet start participating again.

If it is the message you sent a few days back, I can only ask why are these complaints being privately between members instead of posted here or sent to moderators? This is the part I don't understand. If there is a problem why not bring it forward instead of quitting the board or going quiet?
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TKMCE
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spider

All these illuminating posts you pasted (and by the way I never named you ... and despite that your subsequent posting speaks volumes about you) are only brought about by frustrations of ham handed moderation..... Now do me a favor by not posting that private message as well !!!!


Now you are forcing me to say it publicly--- as long as people like you do moderating around here then people like me will get out and by no means I am the first and am sure will not be the last.

I have already requested you moodyrators to remove my posts like you did for KCM, since you refuse to and want to keep on showing you are a wonderfully great person, so be it ...try it on others ... they may tolerate ... people like me have had enough and get out......


Bye Bye

(Edited so that some moodyrator doesnt waste everybodys time by pointing out typos Laughing - but then I think I still have left a couple of typos! Wink )
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Spiderguy252
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may relax, there is no reason why I will put that message up for show in this thread, or any other. That is in my inbox and it has been shared with the other mods even before you requested it to.

If you have any other specific complaints, go ahead and type them out here. This is the venting thread after all. Blanket statements and generalizations like "ham handed moderation" and "I'm fed up with things here" won't do. What exactly is ailing your presence on this forum?

Feel free to type it out. We're all ears.

And as for this, I have already explained it to you:

TKMCE wrote:
I have already requested you moodyrators to remove my posts like you did for KCM, since you refuse to and want to keep on showing you are a wonderfully great person, so be it


Posts can't be removed from the forum, this is a free board. KCM's 9000+ posts are still around for you to see. What makes you think we can delete all of yours?
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