Airliners-India Forum Index Airliners-India
Flickr Group & Facebook
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

AI's losses - in perspective

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Airliners-India Forum Index -> Civil Aviation
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Nimish
Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

From: http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2009/11/air-india-losses-can-feed-400-million.html

Quote:

Just a few days ago the carrier reported a whopping Rs. 5,500 Crore ($1.15 billion) loss for financial year ended March 2009. The airline's total revenue has also fallen 12% to Rs 13,479 crore ($2.79 billion) the last fiscal down from Rs 15,252 ($3.2 billion) crore during the year-ago period.

Let's put the airline's $1.15 billion loss in perspective.

These losses were incurred while carrying about 11 million passengers. Simple arithmetic shows that Air India lost Rs 5,000 ($110) for every passenger it carried!!!! (Thanks to Atanu Dey for this idea).

If 400 million Indians live on less than a $1 a day which includes food, clothing and housing. Akshay Patra, the world's largest NGO-run mid-day meal program feeds, school children a nutritious meal for a whole year for $28. If we extrapolate this, the $1.15 billion losses of Air India can feed 410 million Indians for a year!!!

The losses are across the board and there so many reasons are responsible, one cannot even fathom where to begin.

The Ministry of Civil Aviation keeps poking it's fingers in to every operation of the carrier. Micro-managing everything, the airline has become the Kamadhenu -- the mother of all cows -- milked by the political and bureaucratic class she is now being forced to give her life blood since she has already been sucked dry.

So unhealthy is the situation, that the airline was forced to borrow $104 million just to pay salaries.

Yet for majority of the employees, apathy abounds. The Air India - Indian Airlines divide still rules. Recently I was talking to a ground engineer who informed me that two "Air India" engineers were stationed at a location in India despite the fact the station was serviced by only "Indian Airlines" aircraft (read Airbus A319/A320), which have their own set of "Indian Airlines" ground engineers. I casually mentioned to him that I was meeting senior officers of Air India in a few days and I can bring it to their notice. Concerned he begged me not to. "Why threaten my job?? Tell them after I have retired"

Political patronage abounds, stifling and de-moralising the productive efforts by those few employees who still believe in the airline. In the recent pilots' strike, the Minister, instead of supporting the management, sided with the strikers emboldening them even further.
...
The minister may have the loftiest of dreams for Air India; till he unshackles the airline and lets it's leadership perform or perish, the losses of Air India will continue to mount and suck the precious few resources the Government can better utilise for the national betterment.


Quite amazing to see things in this perspective. Rs. 5000 loss per pax carried??? Shocked

Of course some of this will be money "taken" by the MoCA, the unions, the employees and anyone else interested. That can go away when this thing is privatized.

And if not taxpayers money - how else is this airline being held afloat?
_________________
We miss you Nalini!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
iah87
Member


Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 2458

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be interesting to find out the total losses or (profits) for AI and IC combined for the last 10 years.

Also by looking at the structures of AI and IC, it appears now it would have been better if AI had merged with IC and taken IC's culture instead of the vice-versa.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
me111993
Member


Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 3225
Location: MAA/AMD

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incredible figures!! Nice work done Smile
This is all the more reason for higher authorities in Indian Aviation to start thinking about AI's future.
Nimish, is it possible to publish this info in a newspaper, special emphasis has to be given to the fact that AI losses Rs 5000 per pax and with AI's losses over 400mn people could be fed.
This perseptive originally explains AI's state in layman's terms and could actually create some public pressure also...
Me111993
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
tayaramecanici
Member


Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 648

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the whole AI/IA state of affairs, isn't this indicative of the country as a whole.

Its all a hogwash, where is the media activists, you see most scams in India are unearthed only if some party has a vested interest in it i.e. BOFORS which involved a paltry sum of 65crores is still rewinded every few years because the non-congress parties see a convenient stick to hit the congress with. Notice the website of every major news channel or magazine and they will have a major national or intl airline as their main advertiser. Why would these media org want to expose AI, which would involve highlighting how these advertised airlines are exploiting the situation to fill their coffers and splash some on these websites.

As Atanu mentions AI has turned into a KAMADHENU.

I wish someone could carryout a analysis of the job drain from India due to this shambolic org run by GOI.

In the last 8yrs or so that i've been chatting on various aviation forums, i've come across many indian youngsters who have eventually ended up migrating abroad like myself. With things saturating outside of India this option will be diminishing rapidly. Whereas youth in oil rich countries with poor academic roots seem to be cashing on the boom with a great aviation career.

It depresses me as to the youth of India, where are they ? Its evident that the continuation of status quo in AI/IA - lets accept there is no way things are likely to improve under GOI - is denying these youngsters of a possible fruitfull career path in aviation as a Pilot, Engineer, CC or Management exec.

No wonder joining the maoist movement seems to be more attractive to some of the educated unemployed intellectual classes..............so be it, lets be a communist state rather than a spineless, nincompoop sham democracy.

I have strong doubts on Manmohan singhs capabilities. Its not rocket science to get rid of AI/IA thru a auctioned bidding, let bidders carryout a due dligeance and value the airline accordingly. Even if the GOI pays $25000 to those employs that are retrenched we won't have to sustain this virus, disease, illness whatever that is inflicting Indian aviation.

I can afford to sermonise now that i am out of the pond but it genuinely worries me. I was in my late teens early 20s when i joined AI. Now i am planning for my retirement, and the GOI or Indians just don't seem to realise where it is headed.

I am surely not the most articulate posters here but i guess most understand what i mean to say here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:
And if not taxpayers money - how else is this airline being held afloat?


By non-tax revenue, my dear faux-socialist prima donna Wink

A quick economics lesson for your benefit. Governments have other sources of revenue apart from taxation. Perhaps you need to get certain little facts in order before proceeding to show us how eminently knowledgeable you are.

Honestly, what on earth is this faux-socialist topic doing on the civil aviation forum? Has the CPI(M) begun sponsoring this forum or something suitably outlandish? Really, how romantically Marxist your ideas are, Nimish - "Down with the evil Air India! Power to the people! Free food for all". Cue the red flags with the sickles, Comrade Nimish to the rescue in his favourite red cape Rolling Eyes

Seriously, you lot need a reality check. Feeding 410 million hungry souls is entirely within the wherewithal of the government. In fact, it's a thumb rule in economics that food shortage/hunger/famine is never because there isn't enough food - it's always because the food doesn't get to people quickly enough. India produces enough to feed its billions and then some more. The problem is in adequate storage and efficient transportation before rats and rot catch up with your grains and vegetables. The government has more than adequate resources to arrange for better transportation and storage of its foodgrains, but there is only the problem of desire and will. The money is there, it's just not going in the right directions. Shutting down Air India is not going to change our hunger statistics in any way. All it will ensure is that the middlemen and various random political leeches who have infested the current agriculture system get even more money, while the poor farmers kiss hope goodbye. Raising funds is not a problem for the government, but making sure those funds are going in the right directions certainly is. And that problem is not going to change however much money you pour in.

I'll use an analogy you will love, Nimish. Our agricultural system is like Air India! There is an endemic malaise in it that will not go away just by pouring in money. In fact, resources, infrastructure, funds are there - it is the will that is lacking in some places, and there are reasons for it. The entire system needs to be overhauled and cleaned up before the money available can be put to good use. Shutting down Air India will not lead to 410 million in-the-pink-of-health Indians. Confounded faux-socialists Rolling Eyes

For heaven's sake, stop blaming Air India for every national disaster, from nationwide famine to Himesh Reshammiya. There are many things AI is guilty of, of course, but causing nationwide hunger is not one of them.
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sammyk
Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 2719
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you know where Air India gets its funding? How do you know it comes from non-taxpayer revenue? Sure, you may be right but Nimish could be right. Anyways, see my post on this in the Turnaround thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sammyk wrote:
How do you know where Air India gets its funding? How do you know it comes from non-taxpayer revenue? Sure, you may be right but Nimish could be right. Anyways, see my post on this in the Turnaround thread.


All I said was - assume that the money is not taxpayer's money, and save yourself a lot of heartburn Wink

But you're deviating from the topic of the thread a little bit (admittedly, I deviated first Wink). Air India might be leaking money, but to suggest that its existence is the reason why 400 million Indians go to bed hungry every night is quite ridiculous and smacks of complete ignorance of the actual facts of the matter. Lack of money is not the cause of hunger in India. Corruption and ineptitude in the system are. Air India has nothing to do with that, so screw the 'perspective on its losses'.
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sammyk
Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 2719
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's true. The starving wouldn't get the food anyways. The money would simply line some other bureaucrats pockets.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
jasepl
Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 4257
Location: bund-bay

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air India serves no essential purpose. None at all. From no angle. Searching for a valid reason for AI to continue existing is like looking in a dark cellar, at midnight, for a black cat, that isnít there.

There are many alternatives to AI today, and every single one of them is a million times better and a million times more efficient.

Air India is not an indispensable colossus like the railways, where state involvement and funding is required under all circumstances, regardless of the cost. If the railways were to disappear tomorrow, the country will grind to a halt. If AI were to vanish tomorrow (and I hope every day it does), it will make no real noticeable difference, and others (ie: those not funded by taxpayer money) will quickly pick up the slack.

The only ones really impacted by AIís hopeful death will be the netas and the employees: both groups will lament the disappearance of their free ride.

The netas can suck it; they will find other ways anyway. The employees and their friends and families, well, even if they were all paid off and sent into early retirement everyone will be better off. That way, the employees get paid for doing sweet FA (compared to turning up to work and then doing sweet FA). And theyíre free to look for other employment should they wish. The taxpayers, and, consequently, the nation will be better off because all the thousands and thousands of crores of perfectly good money will no longer have to be thrown to artificially prop up a failed, purposeless entity. Iíd rather it be flushed down the drain or stuffed in an account in Switzerland.
_________________
four years free of jetya punti!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaysit
Member


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 4346

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:
Nimish wrote:
And if not taxpayers money - how else is this airline being held afloat?


By non-tax revenue, my dear faux-socialist prima donna Wink

A quick economics lesson for your benefit. Governments have other sources of revenue apart from taxation. Perhaps you need to get certain little facts in order before proceeding to show us how eminently knowledgeable you are.


You need to go to the AI turnaround thread where I gut your non-tax revenue argument like the rotting carcass it is.

So please stop infecting every thread with your BS economic theories that make absolutely no sense. If there's anyone who's a faux anything, it's you with your faux economic drivel.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karatecatman
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tayaramecanici wrote:
Whereas youth in oil rich countries with poor academic roots seem to be cashing on the boom with a great aviation career.



Wink
Back to top
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Jaysit wrote:
Copious amounts of garbage typed out by Jay


Thanks for directing me there, my friend. I can't believe how 'gutted' I was by all that garbage Rolling Eyes

This is my response, first posted in the AI turnaround thread, and then I thought I might copy it here too in case you missed it!

"

My goodness Jay, "a fundamental lack of understanding of macroeconomics", is it Shocked I posited the above theory after discussing it in general conversation with a gentleman who is a Commisioner of Income Tax (working now as a judge for the IRS) and a lady who is a senior agricultural planning economist working with the Reserve Bank of India who was educated at the London School of.......drum roll.......Economics! Probably one of the most reputed institutions going around in the field Wink

As I have said before, in the vast majority of cases pertaining to government expenditure in India, the money has been available more often than not. It is merely the way the system is conceptualized today, that the money seems to disappear into a cesspool of corruption and mismanagement. Hey hang on! I'll quote you here - development stumbles in India because the government cannot work efficiently with "its bloated workforce, corruption, graft, and the fact that its become a cash cow for ministers, babus". So turning off the Air India life support will merely free up ungodly amounts of money which a handful of Madhu Kodas will swallow up faster than you can say 'Jaysit'.

Funnily enough, I am also perfectly aware that the 'national exchequer' does not compertmentalize revenue or keep his treasure in big chests labelled "earned from screwing taxpayers" and "earned from sources other than screwed taxpayers". All I said was that you could assume this to be so to save yourself a lot of heartburn about how your Indian brethren were going to sleep with ominously rumbling tummies because wicked Air India was nicking all the food from their tables. Moreover, I am also aware that much of the non-tax revenue raised this year was thanks to the navratna PSUs etc. but considerable revenue is also generated by dividends from the government's investments within India and abroad. In any case, revenue from non-tax receipts may amount to 15% of the overall receipts, so I reckon that's more than enough to fund Air India. Because pouring more money into 'development' merely makes the dubiously rich dubiously richer, while the screwed poor remain...well, screwed and poor. Why, instead of questioning the way the government uses its funds, would you shut down a whole airline to free up money, where you have no idea where the damn money's going!

I think it's perfectly fair that the government should pour money into Air India. Air India was a fine airline until the government came and screwed it. Nearly all its problems are of the government's making, thereafter compounded by employee apathy. Now it's the government's bloody responsibility to help it get back on its feet. You may not like that logic, but since no one really cares about your opinion, I think that's quite alright as it stands.

Tell me, my dear Jay, if your heart burns so much for good ol' Indyeah, why on earth don't you come and stay here and work for the betterment of the people? "Oh yes, I love India and down with evil Air India and power to the people and all that jazz, but yuck! who wants to live in all that filth in that smelly third-world dump" eh! Much better to keep mewling from the Capitol Rolling Eyes

Among other things, my dear, you need a sense of humour. Urgently!

As for your 'advice' about the ridiculous moderators on this forum, I would be grateful if you kept it to yourself - I'm sure you know where to stick it Wink I fail to see why I should lick their shoes the way you do. If the moderators are inept and incompetent, I shall be quite frank and forthright with my views and will tell them that they are inept and incompetent. Remember, I do not intend to say that all mods on this forum are fruitcakes, but some undoubtedly are.

"
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.


Last edited by Phadnis on Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rhumbline
Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 443

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:

Tell me, my dear Jay, if your heart burns so much for good ol' Indyeah, why on earth don't you come and stay here and work for the betterment of the people? "Oh yes, I love India and down with evil Air India and power to the people and all that jazz, but yuck! who wants to live in all that filth in that smelly third-world dump" eh! Much better to keep mewling from the Capitol Rolling Eyes


LOL

This pretty much sums up the hypocritical attitude of wise sages positing from abroad about the Indian aviation scenario or tax payer cash burn.

AI is not the biggest cash burner out there and as things stand it won't be the last either until we implement structural changes in the national polity.
People get the govt. they deserve and as long as they keep electing crooks to office the inherent inefficiencies of govt companies are going to get compounded; saddled with the corrupt bureaucracy and ministry diktats.

Shutting down AI is not going to solve anything except that the corrupt mantris are then going to find newer and more innovative ways of siphoning off public exchequer and the whole rigmarole will repeat. The only loser in such a scenario will be Indian aviation sector.
_________________
Learning is not compulsory. Neither is survival
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tayaramecanici
Member


Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 648

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

[quote="rhumbline"]
Phadnis wrote:


AI is not the biggest cash burner out there and as things stand it won't be the last either
Shutting down AI is not going to solve anything except that the corrupt mantris are then going to find newer and more innovative ways of siphoning off public exchequer and the whole rigmarole will repeat. The only loser in such a scenario will be Indian aviation sector.


Rhumb, Can you pls post the list of govt CASH BURNERS that you have access to. I am interested in knowing which unprofitable PSU owned by the GOI requires Rs5K Crores/annum to stay afloat and where the avg staff wage is equivalent to that of a US or EU airline. Don't challenge me on wages i work in the industry, so keep a close tab on wages.

AI/IA pvt or worse shut down lock, stock and barrel is going to be a great milestone on the road to realising India's aviation potential. The pampered staff of AI/IA that are blocking this road now, have become party to the rape and plunder of national wealth. Any staff worth his salt would know that he / she will be employed in an entity replacing AI/IA.

A shut down AI/IA would mean that MoCA regulates Aviation, their constitutional role and not run an airline at the cost of neglecting the regulation. India needs some extremely robust and visionary regulation to propell aviation, for this to happen the ''Conflict of Interest has to be erased''. GOI has to wash its hands off AI/IA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rhumbline
Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 443

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

[quote="tayaramecanici"]
rhumbline wrote:
Phadnis wrote:


AI is not the biggest cash burner out there and as things stand it won't be the last either
Shutting down AI is not going to solve anything except that the corrupt mantris are then going to find newer and more innovative ways of siphoning off public exchequer and the whole rigmarole will repeat. The only loser in such a scenario will be Indian aviation sector.


Rhumb, Can you pls post the list of govt CASH BURNERS that you have access to. I am interested in knowing which unprofitable PSU owned by the GOI requires Rs5K Crores/annum to stay afloat and where the avg staff wage is equivalent to that of a US or EU airline. Don't challenge me on wages i work in the industry, so keep a close tab on wages.

AI/IA pvt or worse shut down lock, stock and barrel is going to be a great milestone on the road to realising India's aviation potential. The pampered staff of AI/IA that are blocking this road now, have become party to the rape and plunder of national wealth. Any staff worth his salt would know that he / she will be employed in an entity replacing AI/IA.

A shut down AI/IA would mean that MoCA regulates Aviation, their constitutional role and not run an airline at the cost of neglecting the regulation. India needs some extremely robust and visionary regulation to propell aviation, for this to happen the ''Conflict of Interest has to be erased''. GOI has to wash its hands off AI/IA.


The examples are all too evident my friend all to recently we have the example of JAL receiving a bailout to the tune of 8.9 Billion USD to meet their pension and related commitments with the current population of Japan this works out to around USD 700 ~ (INR32900 !!) per passenger carried over the last year (link here -> http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/29/jal-bailout-plan-markets-equity-japan.html)

The figure is around 8 times the amount that AI received and Japan is supposed to be the bastion of efficiency

Also I am all for privatization if done in the right manner The airline can certainly prosper maybe in the hands of the efficient Tata group or some foreign JV, but with the kind of charlatan entrepreneurs lurking around like VJM and NG who splurge shareholder money for their own little shenanigans I have little hope of this ever becoming a success.
_________________
Learning is not compulsory. Neither is survival
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
me111993
Member


Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 3225
Location: MAA/AMD

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same old story. Somebody on a thread critises AI some AI protectors come to the rescue and before you know it, there is another heated discussion (mostly involving the same guys)...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
tayaramecanici
Member


Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 648

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

me111993 wrote:
The same old story. Somebody on a thread critises AI some AI protectors come to the rescue and before you know it, there is another heated discussion (mostly involving the same guys)...


Atleast the discussion deals with the issues plaguing Aviation in India, rather than posting on the latest phaloc shafting into India from the ME airlines.

QR goes from A320 - B77W, WOW, Interesting cut, copy paste there...........w£$k, w£$k aagghh.
See if you can raise the discussion to address the shortfalls of aviation in India too rather sounding cynical and enslaved to ME airlines.

rhumbline wrote:
The examples are all too evident my friend all to recently we have the example of JAL receiving a bailout to the tune of 8.9 Billion USD to meet their pension


Thought as much, Pensions contribution my dear are not for the day to day ops of the airline, something that AI is demanding. BA has a pensions defecit of £3b. Here in the developed world the pensions time bomb is not limited to airlines alone.

Its quite sad, i am reading the story on David headley and Rana, one of the often repeated facts on the whole story is thair travel routing via UAE between INDIA and PAK.
Whats next a corporate frequent flyer miles of a LeT or HuJI credit card.

UAE pays these very AQ and affliiated org protection money from bombing and terrorising them, they are also tacitally turning a blind eye to the traffic of terrorist and their funds thru their Airlines and financial hubs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaysit
Member


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 4346

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:


My goodness Jay, "a fundamental lack of understanding of macroeconomics", is it Shocked I posited the above theory after discussing it in general conversation with a gentleman who is a Commisioner of Income Tax (working now as a judge for the IRS) and a lady who is a senior agricultural planning economist working with the Reserve Bank of India who was educated at the London School of.......drum roll.......Economics! Probably one of the most reputed institutions going around in the field Wink


Dear child, either you didn't understand a word what this IT Commissioner and Agro-devi said (assuming they actually exists and aren't figments of your fantasy), or they're just two more hacks working for the GOI who need to be fired.

Either way, the glop you post would make you the laughing stock of the FInance ministry and/or any financial institution (I hope that this lady and gentleman, assuming they exist, and assuming they actually trotted out the garbage you posted keep their identity hidden or else they'd be considered the "GOI Punch and Judy Show.").

Grow up, get an education, learn something, get a job and earn some money. And by getting a job I don't mean using your AI connections to land yourself a "Baap-daada aur beta" job at AI.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

me111993 wrote:
The same old story. Somebody on a thread critises AI some AI protectors come to the rescue and before you know it, there is another heated discussion (mostly involving the same guys)...


You are welcome, good sir, to provide us new/relevant/interesting topics for discussion! And to bring in new members who are willing to offer new arguments! Currently, the Air India issue is a burning issue and that's why there is so much debate about it. I still fail to see why this should annoy you in any way Sad
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.


Last edited by Phadnis on Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Jaysit wrote:
Lots more worthless garbage typed out by Jay

Interestingly pompous response Wink Imagine how much more interesting it would be if you actually spent some time responding to my argument rather than insulting the people who offered me that argument Rolling Eyes

The very fact that you have not responded to, or refuted, any part of my argument indicates that even you agree my argument is absolutely valid and that you can think of nothing to say against it. Thank you, Jay.
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aseem
Member


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2819
Location: YYZ

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:
Jaysit wrote:
Lots more worthless garbage typed out by Jay

Interestingly pompous response Wink Imagine how much more interesting it would be if you actually spent some time responding to my argument rather than insulting the people who offered me that argument Rolling Eyes

The very fact that you have not responded to, or refuted, any part of my argument indicates that even you agree my argument is absolutely valid and that you can think of nothing to say against it. Thank you, Jay.


I am afraid Phadnis that your reply isn't taking the discussing any further. I would suggest that you contribute positively towards the forum first, and set right examples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Aseem wrote:
I am afraid Phadnis that your reply isn't taking the discussing any further. I would suggest that you contribute positively towards the forum first, and set right examples.


Then is Jaysit's post above necessarily taking the discussion any further? Why only single me out?
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aseem
Member


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2819
Location: YYZ

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: AI's losses - in perspective Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:
Aseem wrote:
I am afraid Phadnis that your reply isn't taking the discussing any further. I would suggest that you contribute positively towards the forum first, and set right examples.


Then is Jaysit's post above necessarily taking the discussion any further? Why only single me out?


I am speaking in general taking into account all yours and Jaysit's posts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
me111993
Member


Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 3225
Location: MAA/AMD

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am afraid Phadnis that your reply isn't taking the discussing any further. I would suggest that you contribute positively towards the forum first, and set right examples.


Thats what the fact is, we keep on moving round and round around the same subjects, we have discussed them time and again. Now it's more of a case of contradicting what someone says time and again and just replying for the sake of replying. This is not a debate or a discussion anymore...
This is not singled out to a single person...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
stealthpilot
Member


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: BLR, DXB

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:
A quick economics lesson for your benefit. Governments have other sources of revenue apart from taxation. Perhaps you need to get certain little facts in order before proceeding to show us how eminently knowledgeable you are.

For heaven's sake, stop blaming Air India for every national disaster, from nationwide famine to Himesh Reshammiya. There are many things AI is guilty of, of course, but causing nationwide hunger is not one of them.

Touched a nerve Phadnis Confused

1) Nowhere was it implied that there isnít enough food in the country to feed the poor.
2) No one said shutting down Air India would change our hunger stats.
3) No one is blaming Air India for causing a famine.

All Nimish and the article did was put AIs losses in perspectiveÖ. Thatís it!
He did not stand up and say stop giving Air India money so our poor will have rice on their plate! All he said was that they lost this much money, per passenger carried (and yes there could be many more efficient ways to use that money).
Putting AI's losses - in perspective, thatís the topic of this thread.

Phadnis wrote:
Tell me, my dear Jay, if your heart burns so much for good ol' Indyeah, why on earth don't you come and stay here and work for the betterment of the people? "Oh yes, I love India and down with evil Air India and power to the people and all that jazz, but yuck! who wants to live in all that filth in that smelly third-world dump" eh! Much better to keep mewling from the Capitol Rolling Eyes

So people (Indian or Argentinean or otherwise) who live and work abroad are not entitled to speak about such issues or express their opinion (yes yes that sounded corny I know but you get the idea)? You sound like a rambling politician.
_________________
eP007
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

me111993 wrote:
Quote:
I am afraid Phadnis that your reply isn't taking the discussing any further. I would suggest that you contribute positively towards the forum first, and set right examples.


Thats what the fact is, we keep on moving round and round around the same subjects, we have discussed them time and again. Now it's more of a case of contradicting what someone says time and again and just replying for the sake of replying. This is not a debate or a discussion anymore...
This is not singled out to a single person...

I apologise for turning the forum into a personal slugfest between myself and a handful of other members. However, I really fail to see why only I should always be singled out when others commit far greater offences. Despite Ojas typing in a rather disgraceful post addressing me as a 'hijra' and a 'thief', the moderators did nothing to censure him. Instead, I was banned. I typed in a post offering a new theory about the funding of Air India, and the respondents to that post chose to attack me rather than my comments. I am certainly not a saint by any stretch of imagination, but then neither are quite a few others on this forum. I'm saddened that only I am 'punished' each time, while those who write anything against me are free to keep writing. This from moderators such as Nimish who claim to be 'impartial' Rolling Eyes Even now, Johri could well have addressed both Jay and myself when demanding a calmer discussion, but no! it's only Phadnis who needs to be given a scolding! Why did Johri step into this discussion at all? Because Jay, quite obviously, was losing because of his lame arguments? Is that why Johri stepped in to bail him out and close the argument?

Why is that, Johri? Answer me and I promise you I'll never break any of your precious forum rules again.
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.


Last edited by Phadnis on Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phadnis
Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 204
Location: Mumbai, India

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stealthpilot wrote:
Touched a nerve Phadnis Confused

1) Nowhere was it implied that there isnít enough food in the country to feed the poor.
2) No one said shutting down Air India would change our hunger stats.
3) No one is blaming Air India for causing a famine.

All Nimish and the article did was put AIs losses in perspectiveÖ. Thatís it!
He did not stand up and say stop giving Air India money so our poor will have rice on their plate! All he said was that they lost this much money, per passenger carried (and yes there could be many more efficient ways to use that money).
Putting AI's losses - in perspective, thatís the topic of this thread.

So people (Indian or Argentinean or otherwise) who live and work abroad are not entitled to speak about such issues or express their opinion (yes yes that sounded corny I know but you get the idea)? You sound like a rambling politician.

That is what the article, and by virtue of that Nimish etc.'s comments, are all about. They imply that Air India's closure would help half a billion people. I do not think so. Why else would they use the example of all the starving people? What the author of the piece implies is that shutting air India down would solve a lot of those problems, or at least a whole host of other problems of which the cited problems are a mere example. I disagree with that. You said 'there could be more efficient ways to use that money'. Surely you implied that shutting down Air India would allow for these 'nore efficient ways'. I disagree with your viewpoint there. Among other things, I fail to see why you lot are so vindictive about Air India. Outside of this forum, I have hardly ever heard anyone moaning about Air India taking money intended for other purposes. It seems to be a bee that prefers to settle only in the bonnets of the members of this forum. People never objected when the government began screwing Air India after throwing JRD out. Why should they now object if the government is trying to salvage the upshot of what it started?

As for your question about NRIs not being entitled to an opinion on India, that is precisely my view. Actually, they are free to have an opinion, because that's what free speech is all about, but if they wish to patronize and deliver sermons and if they are not living in India, they should shut up and refrain from expecting their comments to be heard or acted upon. If they dislike India so much that they refuse to live here, then they have no right to expect their views to be heard here. Why should that make me sound like a mutated Thackeray variant?
_________________
The way I see it, you can either work for a living or you can fly airplanes. Me, I'd rather fly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sammyk
Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 2719
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:

That is what the article, and by virtue of that Nimish etc.'s comments, are all about. They imply that Air India's closure would help half a billion people. I do not think so. Why else would they use the example of all the starving people? What the author of the piece implies is that shutting air India down would solve a lot of those problems, or at least a whole host of other problems of which the cited problems are a mere example. I disagree with that. You said 'there could be more efficient ways to use that money'. Surely you implied that shutting down Air India would allow for these 'nore efficient ways'. I disagree with your viewpoint there. Among other things, I fail to see why you lot are so vindictive about Air India. Outside of this forum, I have hardly ever heard anyone moaning about Air India taking money intended for other purposes. It seems to be a bee that prefers to settle only in the bonnets of the members of this forum. People never objected when the government began screwing Air India after throwing JRD out. Why should they now object if the government is trying to salvage the upshot of what it started?


No, you need to not only learn to read but understand what you are reading. Like the article says, it is putting those losses into perspective. They use the example of feeding 410 million people for a year to simply show the magnitude of the losses. It just makes people think, wow, you can feed a third of the nation for a year on just the LOSSES this airline makes. No one is actually suggesting to feed these people, just saying they could.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
avbuff
Member


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 5031

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phadnis wrote:
Despite Ojas typing in a rather disgraceful post addressing me as a 'hijra' and a 'thief', the moderators did nothing to censure him. Instead, I was banned. I typed in a post offering a new theory about the funding of Air India, and the respondents to that post chose to attack me rather than my comments.


How convenient to have selective memory?

Insulting moderators, "f**k the forum rules", taking all the liberties to attack personally (In mine and Jaysit's case it was my school, academics, profession etc) and many of us have seen those unedited versions as well. Until that supposedly 'disgraceful post', you had been spewing shit here and there. You had crossed every limit and hence a reply of that order was necessary.

So, please stop that "I'm-innocent-they're- mean" act.

Phadnis wrote:
All said and done, good to be back on the forum after a couple of weeks off after being 'banned' by the peerlessly incompetent Nimish (who, I believe, has quite a fan following on the forum these days!) and his poor, deluded sidekick Johri. Is there no accountability for the arbitrary, highhanded, biased, draconian and essentially ridiculous manner in which some moderators act on this forum


Learn something from your supporter rhumbline. Much as I disagree to his views, I believe he does not go into personal attack and debates more on facts.


Last edited by avbuff on Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Devesh
Member


Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 564
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stealthpilot wrote:

1) Nowhere was it implied that there isnít enough food in the country to feed the poor.
2) No one said shutting down Air India would change our hunger stats.
3) No one is blaming Air India for causing a famine.

All Nimish and the article did was put AIs losses in perspectiveÖ. Thatís it!
He did not stand up and say stop giving Air India money so our poor will have rice on their plate! All he said was that they lost this much money, per passenger carried (and yes there could be many more efficient ways to use that money).
Putting AI's losses - in perspective, thatís the topic of this thread.


Thanks SP, that was the primary intention of my article. The second was to expose the double talk of PP (not for us on AI who know) but for the populace at large, and the last was to exhort the unshackling of AI. As much as I would like to see AI privatised, the start will be the unshackling of the airline from MoCA and the netas and babus.

I also observed that "national" carriers which are free from govt interference have fared better in this downturn when compared to those that are micro-managed.
_________________
----------------------
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nimish
Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Devesh wrote:
As much as I would like to see AI privatised, the start will be the unshackling of the airline from MoCA and the netas and babus.


Though Devesh - given AI/IC's internal squabbling and lack of common sense on integration - it sounds like unshackling from MoCA and netas/ babus will not help too much. It'll just be more of the same - just a different name plate on display.
_________________
We miss you Nalini!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Devesh
Member


Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 564
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:
Devesh wrote:
As much as I would like to see AI privatised, the start will be the unshackling of the airline from MoCA and the netas and babus.


Though Devesh - given AI/IC's internal squabbling and lack of common sense on integration - it sounds like unshackling from MoCA and netas/ babus will not help too much. It'll just be more of the same - just a different name plate on display.


Nimish, today the administrators of Air India have the excuse of the netas and babus in case they fail to achieve goals. To ensure a "perform or perish" culture at AI, this meddling and the crutch that it becomes has to be removed
_________________
----------------------
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tayaramecanici
Member


Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 648

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:
Devesh wrote:
As much as I would like to see AI privatised, the start will be the unshackling of the airline from MoCA and the netas and babus.


Though Devesh - given AI/IC's internal squabbling and lack of common sense on integration - it sounds like unshackling from MoCA and netas/ babus will not help too much. It'll just be more of the same - just a different name plate on display.


Its a game of survival being played by the management of both the airlines. The basic premise of any Merger is Synergy, you can imagine the duplication of management in both the airlines where for example you now have 2 Directors for everything from Ops, Engg down to choosing Toilet paper roll. The tug of war on which director prevails leads to his army of luitenants then surviving.
This duplication was highlighted in a article posted recently here, where they mentioned about 2 sets of engineers from AI and IA each at a station served by 1 aircraft type !

To a certain degree i sympathise with the staff however beyond a point they have to see the writing on the wall. Its been over 30yrs since AI was socialised (my dictionary), the staff have to push for pvt and that is the only solution to their survival. A NACIL rundown to lockout will not serve their purpose as the competitors are likely to muscle in. Staff from NACIL that are ready to risk it will jump the boat and the rest will be left holding the pan. I left AI in early 90s things haven't changed a wee bit, every year its the same story of losses and more money pumped in.

Look at the history of aviation worldwide, even in communist Russia or China the airlines are independent entities. Europe is going thru its share of the last of the socialist airlines undergoing pvt i.e. Alitalia, Olympic. Having worked in AI and seeing first hand the deline or decay of the airline, its a criminal waste throwing good money behind badly managed businesses like AI in a country screaming for resources. Most of my mates who stayed back in AI are no worse off than us who left AI 15+ yrs back, they have been taking 1st world wages for 3rd world productivity.

We were nearly 50 AI engg staff that moved to EK in the 80s & 90s, prior to us it was our seniors who did the same going to SQ. Atleast among us 50+ the discussion is always about the frustrating state of aviation in India and how the ME airlines are plundering India wealth, off which i would say to those anti-NRI screaming AI wasters, we bring back to India part of the wealth. All of our wages and savings end up in India. Atleast of those in the ME as you know they do not offer citizenship.

So this hypocratic rhetoric of pseudo nationalism is a load of BS. Get on and get a proper job.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karatecatman
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tayaramecanici wrote:
Nimish wrote:
Devesh wrote:
Staff from NACIL that are ready to risk it will jump the boat and the rest will be left holding the pan.


Ain't gonna happen.

Survival package will be worked out as the PMO is directly involved. The only thing is that the full bailout will be administered in tiny doses and stretched out after some cosmetic changes. --- carrot and stick.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Airliners-India Forum Index -> Civil Aviation All times are GMT + 5.5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Hosted by phpBB.BizHat.com