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787
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Khanna ,Punjab
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 Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: Punjab Today |
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Well in this topic I am not going to start any community comparison or topic I just want to now the views of the members on all the chaos here in Punjab.
You cannot insult or give your explicit views on either of the communities .
Please give your comments.If it is not going to be resolved within few days, the history may repeat itself. (hardl,very.very against) |
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saurabhm_101
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 529
Location: Mumbai
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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i think that i can be sorted out if both the sides are ready to co-operate and compromise on a few things... but if they remain strong headed i dont see a solution to the problem!
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787
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Khanna ,Punjab
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Well every thing is over now.
The mistake has been apologised.
Nobody now need to coment on this.Thanks for reading. |
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tsk911
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 223
Location: DEL
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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The name of the thread Punjab Today is also name of a news channel...
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VABBy
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 823
Location: DEL
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Lets be very honest here... First we should be asking ourselves whether Sikhism is actually a religion?? With all due Respect to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sikhism came to limelight when an army was formed to fight off the opressions against Hindu,s by Mughal and British.
Once the purpose was solved the army which had been created should have merged with the main stream of Hindu religion and continue worshiping the Guru Granth Sahib or the preachings of the 9 Guru,s because even the holy book is full of ram and rahim...
Initially the Sikhs used to follow the same calender as in Hindu,s bt within last few years we saw emergence of Sikh calender which is exactly same as hindu,s but with only difference of One day ie all the functions were to be celebrated one day in advance or after the actual day....
I feel Sikhism and Dera both are sects and have vested intrests in such things while today SPGC is representing the affulent punjabi ppl dera is representing the dalits and lower caste punjabis....
If the SPGC hardliners are continued to be given free run for whatever they want i can forsee another Bhindrawala in making and if that happens are people of Punjab in game for another round of Operation Blue Star
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787
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Khanna ,Punjab
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| VABBy wrote: | Lets be very honest here... First we should be asking ourselves whether Sikhism is actually a religion?? With all due Respect to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sikhism came to limelight when an army was formed to fight off the opressions against Hindu,s by Mughal and British.
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A stupid question.There should be no doubt ?
Of course the army you are talking about was surely to fight for Hindus.
But the Sikhism is not an army.it is better you try to read the history of India and the specific.Well the army was formed after the forcefully conversion of Hindus and Sikhs to islaam by the mughals.The army was not formed bey the guru Nanak Dev ji the founder of the Sikhism.
So you must have got the answer sir that the sikhism is a religion.
Well the rise of the deras in punjab is not because of the sikhism but the social culture here.Dalits are to be find everywhere in India and because of the negligence they have to find the shelter where they get equal behavior.but it fails to do so.the new sects again give a them an identity with that specific sect which again give them a site of negligence.
In the reply you have given the example of ram and rahim. you cannot say that the Guru Granth Sahib Is wholly based on them.Our Granth has even described that raavan was a great person.
Now why they have been ,described? Because They were a popular name in that time and there great deeds were a nice example to explain the reason of our life.
Well now Don't take my this reply as a sikh is speaking.These are the facts.
I love all the religions and keep on reading about various religions on wikipedia.
Personally to some extnt our family follows hindu traditions.We have had havans many times in our home and a geeta path as well |
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| VABBy wrote: | Lets be very honest here... First we should be asking ourselves whether Sikhism is actually a religion?? With all due Respect to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sikhism came to limelight when an army was formed to fight off the opressions against Hindu,s by Mughal and British.
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Vabby - this question is kind of a moot point - IMO not much to bring up and discuss.
At the end of the day, today Sikhs are a very distinct community/ beliefs/ practices from the mainstream Hindus. AFAIK, the law of the land and the Govt. of India recognize Sikhism as a separate religion, hence there's a separate "Delhi Gurudwara Act" that actually tries to define what's a sikh.
Some random links that came on via googling on this topic:
http://www.sikhnet.com/s/SikhIntro
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism
| Quote: | | Scholars have presented Sikhism as a distinct faith. Some scholars have presented it as a syncretic religion which combines some elements of Hinduism and Islam. Sikhs maintain that their religion was directly inspired by God, and many of them consider the notion that Sikhism is a syncretic religion to be offensive. |
The BBC also lists Sikhism as a separate religion:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/
While there's no doubt that these 2 religions (Hinduism and Sikhism) are closely linked and some folks believe/ practice both (hence some Hindus will visit gurudwaras and some Sikhs will visit temples), I don't think it's there's any doubt in my mind that Sikhism is it's own religion by now. |
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Now about the chaos itself in Punjab related to this Dera business.
IMO, I feel that the mainline sikhs are reacting too much to the incident. It would have been best to completely ignore the dera chief and his stunts. Ultimately if you look at the basic tenets/philosophy of sikhism:
(quoting from: http://www.sikhs.org/philos.htm)
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1. There is only one God, he is the Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.
2. God cannot take human form.
3. The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God. This can be accomplished by following the teachings of the Guru, meditation on the Holy Name and performance of acts of service and charity.
4. The five cardinal vices are; Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (worldly attachment) and Ahankar (pride). If one can overcome these, they will achieve salvation
5. Narm Marg; emphasizes daily devotion to the remembrance of God
6. Rejection of all forms of blind rituals such as fasting, religious vegetarianism, pilgrimages, superstions, yoga, as well as any form of idol worship
7. Normal Family life (Grasth) is encouraged, celibacy or renunciation of the world is not necessary to achieve salvation. The devotee must live in the world yet keep his mind pure. He must be a soldier, a scholar, a saint.
8. The Sikh Holy Book (Guru Granth Sahib) is the perpetual Guru, there is no place in Sikhism for a living Guru today.
9. Sikhism rejects all distinctions of caste, creed, race or sex
10. The Guru's stressed the full equality of women, rejecting female infanticide, sati (wife burning), permitting widow remarriage and rejects purdah (women wearing veils).
11. Honest labour and work (Kirat Karna) are the approved way of living ones life. It is considered honourable to earn ones daily bread through honest work and not by begging or dishonest means.
12. Vand Chhakna, sharing with others is also a social responsibility. The individual is expected to help others in need through charity.
13. Seva, community service is also an intergral part of Sikhism. The free community kitchen (langar) found at every gurdwara and open to people of all religions is one expression of this community service.
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If you take a look at bullet 4 above - the current SPGC seems to have completely given a pass to one of the basic tenets, and are currently displaying a lot of "krodh" and "Ahankar".
This (current battle between SPGC and the Dera) is probably not what Sikhism should be about. Sikhism is about all the respect and love spelt out above.
Sikh friends - please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere on this topic! |
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787
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Khanna ,Punjab
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes you are correct nimish sir.Thank you for understanding Sikhism
Well one thing in my mind which every time rings in my mind when i see news is that the facts presented by the media about dera controversy is not complete.they are picking the incident only of the dress.Well that's not the main issue.the issue is that he(derewala) has imitated the whole process of the amritpaan which is very sacred for a sikh. |
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| 787 wrote: | | Well one thing in my mind which every time rings in my mind when i see news is that the facts presented by the media about dera controversy is not complete.they are picking the incident only of the dress.Well that's not the main issue.the issue is that he(derewala) has imitated the whole process of the amritpaan which is very sacred for a sikh. |
787,
Ultimately you have to realize that the mainline sikhs are only bringing more attention to the dera, which will unfortunately result in the dera suddenly becoming a "valid" or "recognized" branch of religion.
Ultimately religion is very fluid, witness Hinduism which has spawned off 100's of variants/branches - right from the Osho's of the world to the Mata Amritanandamayi's of the world. With no impact to mainline hinduism.
Is there a case for more tolerance from mainline sikhism? I find these points are very key to the current controversy:
| Quote: |
1. There is only one God, he is the Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.
2. God cannot take human form.
6. Rejection of all forms of blind rituals such as fasting, religious vegetarianism, pilgrimages, superstions, yoga, as well as any form of idol worship
8. The Sikh Holy Book (Guru Granth Sahib) is the perpetual Guru, there is no place in Sikhism for a living Guru today. |
Is the "amritpaan" a kind of a ritual (I don't really know) or initiation ceremony? |
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tsk911
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 223
Location: DEL
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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NIMISH, Amritpaan is the baptisation process. Guru Gobind Singh Ji first baptised 5 people belonging to different castes and creeds. These came to be known as the 5 Beloved or the Panj Pyaras... Guru Ji asked for a person who can give his Sees (Head) one by one. Eventually, 5 persons came forward and came to be known as the Panj Pyaras. They were called in the tent (I'm not sure if it was a tent or not) one by one. As one came, a little later blood was seen coming out of the tent. After this whole process, Guru Ji introduced to the Sangat (gathering) Panj Pyaras and baptised them (Amritpaan) and later baptised himself from these Panj Pyaras. The Hukum of these Panj Pyaras was to be abided by one and all, even Guru Ji himself had to abide by them and he did. For your information, one of these 5 Pyaras was a barber by profession.
TO VABBy... The question you asked points that you doubt the identity of Sikhism. See, if you go into the history of Sikhism then you will realise the relevance of your question. And Sikhism is the religion and Khalsa is the army...
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Nalini... The Princess of the Sky... You are a star which will continue to illuminate your own A.net-India forever... |
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VABBy
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 823
Location: DEL
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Agreed TSK Khalsa was started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji the 10th guru but then the question why and how did sikhism came into picture.. Because if i am nt wrong none of the 9 gurus emphasised on having a patka/turban
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tsk911
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 223
Location: DEL
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| VABBy wrote: | | Agreed TSK Khalsa was started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji the 10th guru but then the question why and how did sikhism came into picture.. Because if i am nt wrong none of the 9 gurus emphasised on having a patka/turban |
See, all the Gurus used to wear Turbans... Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the final Guru to the Sikhs so that after him the teachings of Gurus and other Bhagats regularise the conduct of the Sikhs... Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji said SAB SIKHAN KO HUKAM HAI, GURU MANEYO GRANTH, which means it's an order to all Sikhs to consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru... and Guru Ji himself gave the instructions to be abided by a Sikh...like to keep hair, no to tobacco, drugs and other addiction including ALCOHOL......
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Nalini... The Princess of the Sky... You are a star which will continue to illuminate your own A.net-India forever... |
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