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The_Goat
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: India-England Test Series. |
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I don't get to watch the matches live here but do follow the ball by ball updates. It looks to me as if England have figured out how to play our bowlers on our pitches. They comprehensively outplayed India in the second test.
I think Panesar and not KP should have been Man of the Match. Without Panesar, I believe either India would have won or the game would have been drawn, despite KP's fantastic innings.
What do you think?
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abhigopal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Was given to KP because it was harder to bat on this pitch than bowl spin. Deserved IMHO. |
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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We need to be innings defeated at Eden Gardens, so we can purge our team, get rid of the Dhonut, etc.
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | We need to be innings defeated at Eden Gardens, so we can purge our team, get rid of the Dhonut, etc. |
If we are innings defeated at Eden Gardens a job will be lost. Not Dhongi's but Duncan Fletcher's.
Knowing our media and fans, they will all lay the blame on his doorstep. They will say that being the former England coach he should have known about all the English players like the back of his hands but he didn't, he underestimated the damage Monty Panesar could do, he under-rated KP's ability and Cook's captaincy, he over-rated India's spinners etc etc etc.
How can Dhongi and his merry band of demi Gods ever be in the wrong , eh?
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me111993
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Panesar's highly overated, IMO, all he did was bowl fast spin on that track, the pitch was crumbling, fast-ish balls on such tracks occasionally spurt around, one goes through, the other jumps, Indian spinners tried flighting the ball, amongst various other variations, basically giving the English tons of time to rock back and play through the covers.
On top of everything, it was Pietersen who single handedly won the game.
As for all the Anti-Dhoni people, to hell with captaincy, find us a Keeper/Batsman with a test average of 40 and an ODI average of 53 and then do raise your voice, who is a probable replacement, duck boy Saha or the man child Patel?
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| me111993 wrote: | Panesar's highly overated, IMO, all he did was bowl fast spin on that track, the pitch was crumbling, fast-ish balls on such tracks occasionally spurt around, one goes through, the other jumps, Indian spinners tried flighting the ball, amongst various other variations, basically giving the English tons of time to rock back and play through the covers.
On top of everything, it was Pietersen who single handedly won the game.
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So basically a 'highly overrated' Panesar knocked the living daylights out of 'the best players of spin in the world', while our own 'highly talented spinners' , bowling on pitches tailor made for them, were knocked all over the park by a couple of good batsmen from a team that allegedly 'does not know how to play spin' ???
To me that sounds ridiculous, no matter how I look at it.
Besides, Panesar's bowling average is just about as good as any spinner anywhere. He has played far fewer tests for his age, but that is because spinners are an unwanted species on the fast English wickets. He has also had to deal with the bigoted suits in the English board, and a coach who never liked him or respected his abilities (Duncan Fletcher), even a captain who didn't pick him on a turning wicket in Ahmedabad. Despite all this he has shown excellent maturity, and delivered when it mattered.
Overrated??? Undervalued, more like!
| Quote: |
As for all the Anti-Dhoni people, to hell with captaincy, find us a Keeper/Batsman with a test average of 40 and an ODI average of 53 and then do raise your voice, who is a probable replacement, duck boy Saha or the man child Patel? |
Nobody said anything about his batting or his keeping. It is his captaincy that is being criticized. He may have a test average of 40 (rubbish ,if you look at the other test averages going around), but it is of no frigging use if he can't take an intelligent decision on the field.
Dhoni may have been a good ODI captain, but in tests he leaves a lot to be desired.
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me111993
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | So basically a 'highly overrated' Panesar knocked the living daylights out of 'the best players of spin in the world', while our own 'highly talented spinners' , bowling on pitches tailor made for them, were knocked all over the park by a couple of good batsmen from a team that allegedly 'does not know how to play spin' ???
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Lets see how he plays in the next match. I only made a statement on Panesar, and about being knocked around the park, the only English players who were able to bat in these conditions were Cook and Pietersen.
| Quote: | It is his captaincy that is being criticized. He may have a test average of 40 (rubbish ,if you look at the other test averages going around), but it is of no frigging use if he can't take an intelligent decision on the field.
Dhoni may have been a good ODI captain, but in tests he leaves a lot to be desired. |
an average of 40 is crap? Seriously?
Kohli is 38, Gambhir is 44, Yuvraj is 34, Laxman was 42, so if an average of 40 is crap, then we really have some serious problems here.
Why would you call his ODI captaincy good? Or test captaincy bad?
None of us hold a pHd in the game, all of us are self proclaimed experts, but I fail to understand how people jupm to conclusions so comfortably and quickly.
Most people I know bitch about Dhoni when India loses do so because they make him king the moment India wins the match, so he has it coming, beyond that, I see no reason how the loss is Dhoni's fault as much as its Tendulkar's or Sehwag's, or Kohli's or Fletcher's.
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | We need to be innings defeated at Eden Gardens, so we can purge our team, get rid of the Dhonut, etc. |
The first thing that should happen is that the old fossil should be declared so and put into a museum. Enough of his personal-record fest. He is way past service age now..poor form with the bat and a liability in the fielding component too..
Next to go should be zak and turbanator..and if dhoni doesnt play any innings of importance in the next 2 tests, he should be gotten rid of too. |
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| mel111993 wrote: | | None of us hold a pHd in the game, all of us are self proclaimed experts, but I fail to understand how people jupm to conclusions so comfortably and quickly. |
You don't need a PhD in anything to make an intelligent assessment. If that were an essential requirement, forums like this would not exist.
| mel111993 wrote: | an average of 40 is crap? Seriously?
Kohli is 38, Gambhir is 44, Yuvraj is 34, Laxman was 42, so if an average of 40 is crap, then we really have some serious problems here. |
The problem we have is that some kids cannot do a proper comparison 
Seriously, how can you compare the record of a Captain like Dhoni with that of his juniors like Kohli, Yuvraj or Gambhir, all of whom have played far fewer tests than him? There is a reason why he 'captains' these people, right??
Only peer-to-peer comparisons have any meaning, And here are the test averages of the Captains of the teams that matter
Graeme Smith 49.52
M.J Clarke 52.15
Alastair Cook 49.37
Mahela Jayewardene 50.18
Misbah Ul Haq 45.68
M.S.Dhongi 37.69 (yes that is his latest)
I think I am pretty clear about what I mean by 'rubbish'. Even a captain of a struggling team like New Zealand, Ross Taylor, has a test batting average of 43.6, better than MSD.
And I don't have any memory of a recent test against a competitive side (No, not New Zealand playing in India), where MSD played a captain's knock to save the team.
| mel111993 wrote: | | Why would you call his ODI captaincy good? Or test captaincy bad? |
I call his ODI captaincy good because he played a crucial role in winning us the World Cup. His innings in the WC final itself is enough to make him a legend. Yes, there are detractors who claim that it was not great enough as the matches were played in India, but that is roobish. Winning the WC, even while playing on Indian soil was a fantastic achievement.
I call his test captaincy bad because under him we were massacred in England and lost our No 1 ranking, we were massacred in Australia, and have beaten In India by an English team that was allegedly inferior to us in every respect. Thank heavens we didn't tour South Africa for a test series in the interim else we would have been hammered there too.
But if we do end up beating England in this series, my respect for MSD as a test captain will go up a notch. Only by a notch , but an increase nevertheless.
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me111993
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Only peer-to-peer comparisons have any meaning, And here are the test averages of the Captains of the teams that matter |
How many of his 'peers' keep? There was a massive uproar when Dravid was asked to keep for 10 odd overs in England when Dhoni bowled, kills concentration, exhausts a player to death, blah blah.
Thing is, statistics can be interpreted in a million ways, yeah this comes from a kid, you see, most will forget that he was the 3rd highest run scorer against England in England, or that in South Africa just before the world cup he amassed 219 runs in 4 innings, in some of the most trying conditions present.
No one stares at those important 30's or 40's he gets, everyone wants those flashy 100's, even if its from a batsman batting at no. 7 and only has bowlers to play after him. Its essentially the most difficult position to bat in, either he's required to slog as the team is 500/5 or he is required to play along with the bowlers when the team is tottering at 120/5.
If you can blame him for the defeats which cost India the No. 1 test ranking, do remember it was under HIM that we became no 1 too, again its under him that the Ashwin's and the Ojha's are coming into the side, under him that the Pujara's and the Kohli's are being groomed, obviously there'll be issues, its not easy to step up and fill in the shoes of Ganguly or Dravid or Laxman,
Its very easy to bitch about Dhoni degrade a fellow forumer, but a tad difficult to gain some perspective.
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Well, if his keeping is eroding his efficiency as a batsman and captain he should show the maturity to hand the gloves to someone else. Not too much to expect maturity from a captain is it?
I'm sorry but a Captain cannot get away by just holding a fielding position, no matter how important. He is expected to score big and save matches, given the emphasis on batting in today's cricket.
But no, he insists on keeping and his batting (and apparently Captaincy)suffers as a result, much to the detriment of the team.
All his exploits in the past are fine, but one has to admit that Dhoni's captaincy has suffered in the past couple of years and we are worse off as a team, as a result.
| me111993 wrote: | Its very easy to degrade a fellow forumer
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I never intended to degrade you. I thought that smiley conveyed that it was said in jest. Apparently it did not. Sorry if I hurt your feelings
although calling someone a kid is by no means degrading, IMHO.
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I don't know which is the more pampered bunch : AI's widebodies (the aunties) or Jet's widebodies (the planes).
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ssbmat wrote: |
The first thing that should happen is that the old fossil should be declared so and put into a museum. Enough of his personal-record fest. He is way past service age now..poor form with the bat and a liability in the fielding component too..
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Agreed. It was painful seeing an icon like him struggling to score even on his home turf in Mumbai.
He should follow the example of Rahul Dravid, VVS Laxman and Ricky Ponting and gracefully bow out now.
For us he will always be one of the greatest batsmen who walked the planet, and a Champion of Champions. Let us remember him as a master destroyer of bowling attacks rather than as a old horse struggling to get into double digit scores.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Going pretty well at the moment, England 96/0 chasing our 316 first innings total.
Hope they make 500.
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | Going pretty well at the moment, England 96/0 chasing our 316 first innings total.
Hope they make 500. |
England are 216/1 at close  Even Jonathan Trott seems to have found some legs, and Captain Cook is classy as always.
They'll get a first innings lead of at least 200 at this rate.
Cheteshwar Pujara is going to have nightmares about dropping Cook at 17 for the rest of his life !!!!
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Goat wrote: | | Cheteshwar Pujara is going to have nightmares about dropping Cook at 17 for the rest of his life !!!! |
We don't have to care about Pujara for the moment, we have to watch out for England's well-being this innings, game and series to ensure that Pujara is part of a team that's trying their hardest to win games, in future.
For after this series,
Out: Gambhir, Tendulkar, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Sharma, Khan, Fletcher.
Hopefully.
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | The_Goat wrote: | | Cheteshwar Pujara is going to have nightmares about dropping Cook at 17 for the rest of his life !!!! |
We don't have to care about Pujara for the moment, we have to watch out for England's well-being this innings, game and series to ensure that Pujara is part of a team that's trying their hardest to win games, in future.
For after this series,
Out: Gambhir, Tendulkar, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Sharma, Khan, Fletcher.
Hopefully. |
I'd cut Yuvraj and Gambhir some slack. One hopes Gambhir is only having a momentary lull in his form and that is quite natural for all players. Yuvraj is still recovering from his cancer and should not have been picked for this test series in the first place. However, he should get some more chances as he is the only one who is somewhat close to a real all-rounder that we have.
Dhoni can stay, provided he either drops his keeping or his captaincy. Doing both is clearly too much for him.
But yes, the rest must go. I'd send The Turbanator (the one playing for India) home as well.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Getting smashed as expected, but it's all for the greater good.
Yuvraj was never a test player, with or without cancer. If you're a fan of players like him, you'll also like Ravi Bopara and Samit Patel and Steve Smith and people like that. He can GTFO our test team.
Gambhir has had 10-12 good test matches in his career, all during 2008-2009, and while I was a supporter until recently, it's looking like a huge statistical anomaly now. His last century came against Bangladesh in Jan 2010. He can GTFO as well.
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Getting smashed as expected, but it's all for the greater good. |
oh don't hold your breath on that one. Even if India loses the series 3-1, the blame will be put on the pitch man at Kolkata, pitch man at Mumbai, Duncan Fletcher, bad astrological alignment and every factor other than the performance of Dhoni and Co.
When the Australians come in February next, you'll see the same faces in Team India yet again.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Goat wrote: | | oh don't hold your breath on that one. Even if India loses the series 3-1, the blame will be put on the pitch man at Kolkata, pitch man at Mumbai, Duncan Fletcher, bad astrological alignment and every factor other than the performance of Dhoni and Co. |
Oh, Fletcher needs to go too. His record with all the teams he's coached over the years is laughable. Can't see any visible improvement in the Kohlis or Ishants either. Bet he just wants a fat paycheck before retirement.
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Jeh
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | Oh, Fletcher needs to go too. His record with all the teams he's coached over the years is laughable. Can't see any visible improvement in the Kohlis or Ishants either. Bet he just wants a fat paycheck before retirement. |
India have been shockingly bad since Fletcher waddled into the mix.
They've played 18 Tests of which they've won 6, lost 9 and drawn 3. Come Sunday, that figure may well become 19 Tests, won 6, lost 10, drawn 3. Of the six wins, five have come at home, four of them against West Indies and New Zealand. The only away victory came against West Indies.
They're currently having their collective asses handed to them by an England team that had its ass handed to it by the Pakistanis earlier this year. Hardly the Invincibles.
Were Fletcher a race-horse, somebody would've lured him out onto the grass by now, put a green tent around him and done the kind thing. |
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: |
Oh, Fletcher needs to go too. His record with all the teams he's coached over the years is laughable. Can't see any visible improvement in the Kohlis or Ishants either. Bet he just wants a fat paycheck before retirement. |
Fletcher had an excellent record with England. Nasser Hussain, Michael Waughan and Andrew Strauss have sung his praise many times. In fact, he played a key role in getting them to World No 1 in tests. That was the reason why he was selected to coach India.
But then the ECB gave him a free hand in selection , training and everything else, something the jocks at BCCI aren't doing, and will never do.
Maybe Kirsten and Wright did a better job at dealing with the BCCI than Fletcher is doing, but that by no means makes him a bad coach.
at the end of the day, the coach does'nt bowl, bat or field. So blaming him is rather pointless.
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Jeh
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Goat wrote: | | at the end of the day, the coach does'nt bowl, bat or field. So blaming him is rather pointless. |
Then what is he there for?
It's not as if he's in charge of a talentless bunch of no-hopers, like the average Bangladesh coach. Most of the current squad were part of the World Cup victory and ascent to No. 1 in the Test rankings. What's missing now? Techniques, fitness, strategy/tactics - all in the coach's domain.
Fletcher has all the money, support and resources he could possibly hope for, yet he still can't get this pampered assortment of sloths to function as a cricket team. If he's being thwarted by the BCCI, he should do the honourable thing and resign, and tell everyone why he did it. He's rich enough and senior enough to be able to do so. If he's happy to continue taking their dime to be in charge of this sorry mess, he should have no complaints about people opining that he is, in fact, useless. |
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| The_Goat wrote: | | Fletcher had an excellent record with England. Nasser Hussain, Michael Waughan and Andrew Strauss have sung his praise many times. In fact, he played a key role in getting them to World No 1 in tests. That was the reason why he was selected to coach India. |
I'm aware of the adulation he's held in, but I've never figured it out. From England's perspective, here's how I see the major series results during his reign:
1999: Away series loss to NZ to become #8 in the rankings, Fletcher is appointed coach after this tour.
2000-1: Triumphs in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. It is said that many English fans hold these victories in higher regard than any Ashes victories.
2001: Loss 4-1 to Australia in England in an Ashes summer.
2002: Draw 1-1 to India in a home summer.
2002-3: Ashes loss 4-1 in Australia.
2003: Loss to South Africa in a home summer captained by Smith, Hussain resigns.
2003-4: Away win in South Africa 2-1.
2004: Away win in the West Indies.
2005: Ashes win 2-1 at home.
2005-6: Mauling by Pakistan in Pakistan 2-0.
2006: Draw in India 1-1.
2006-7: Ashes whitewash 5-0 in Australia.
2007: Loss to India 1-0 in a home summer. Sacked after this series.
And then with India:
2010-11: Win 1-0 in the West Indies thanks singularly to a Dravid century at Jamaica.
2011: Whitewash 4-0 in England.
2011-12: Whitewash 4-0 in Australia.
2012: Loss 3-1 to England in India?
Surely you don't consider that record any better than patchy at best?
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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I fully agree that Fletcher needs to go. But blaming him for the entire fiasco is unfair, and unfortunately, that's what our media and observers will do, while letting Dhoni and his mob off the hook. Therein lies the danger.
And don't forget that the games are being played in India, and our Indian players have more experience with our pitches than Duncan Fletcher does. If there is a flaw in his technical advice and strategy what are our 'experienced seniors' doing? Sitting at Fletcher's knee and nodding 'yes, uncle', for everything he says?? Can they not come up with a strategy and counter the coach?
They would do it, if the urge to win was there. Unfortunately that has gone out of the window.
Seriously, must batsmen with the experience of Sehwag and Tendulkar look to up to Fletcher for tips on batting?
Fletcher may not have had a great record when it comes to the teams winning (again, he doesn't bat , bowl or field) but he is responsible for the selection and coming of age of a number of English players, thanks to whom England is a side to reckon with now. Batsmen like Kevin Petersen, Alastair Cook, Eoin Morgan, Ian Bell and bowlers like James Anderson, Monty Paesar and Graeme Swann all made their debuts under his watch. He did a brilliant job of identifying talent, and also played a key role in persuading the stubborn counties to relieve the players for the national side.
Basically, if he is allowed to do a job properly, he will do it. But since the BCCI won't let him, he is here just for the money. Exactly what even I would do if I were in his place.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Christ, it's happening again. 111/4 and still trailing by close to a hundred.
This comment on CricInfo commentary sums it up:
Prabal Goel has a question (and maybe a plan): "Has it ever happened that all 11 players of a test match been dropped for the next Test match?"
Edit: 122/6. A big hand to that captain's knock from Dhonut there...
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
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This is what happens to a country which does not celebrate ordinary everyday people. They create demigods out of rookie cricketers and in one or two cases, gods . These gods must be brought to earth from their lofty self-assumed pedestals.
There is no point in blaming a foreigner coach for what is essentially an internal crisis. This is exactly the history of this blighted nation, in sport and in politics. |
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ssbmat wrote: | This is what happens to a country which does not celebrate ordinary everyday people. They create demigods out of rookie cricketers and in one or two cases, gods . These gods must be brought to earth from their lofty self-assumed pedestals.
There is no point in blaming a foreigner coach for what is essentially an internal crisis. This is exactly the history of this blighted nation, in sport and in politics. |
Very true.
There will be some tough calls on the selectors for the fourth test. I wonder who is going to get the chop? Tendulkar and Zaheer, IMO should be the first ones to go, but will the BCCI have the guts to remove them?
and what about Captain Dhoni?
Interesting to see what will happen during the next few days.
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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and the first changes ring in... Awana, Jadeja and Chawla in. Yuvraj, Turbanator and Zak out.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/596328.html
But Dhoni still gets to Captain and keep. Tendulkar still gets to bat.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Jadeja? Ravindra Jadeja?
You're kidding right?
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | Jadeja? Ravindra Jadeja?
You're kidding right? |
Nope, It is Ravindra Jadeja.
He has been scoring some triple centuries in the Ranji Trophy recently, so they've decided to toss him off the deep end and bring him into the test team.
Remains to be seen if he will be better or worse than Yuvraj.
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Unless you play like a professional team.....you can't win......
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Job's not done yet. If our test team has to indeed move forward, we need to be smashed to pulp in Nagpur starting tomorrow.
Haters gonna hate.
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | Job's not done yet. If our test team has to indeed move forward, we need to be smashed to pulp in Nagpur starting tomorrow.
. |
I'm afraid, it looks like that is exactly what is going to happen. Apparently, the pitch will be a rank turner which means 20 wickets in four days by Panesar and Swann.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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So I've read this thread from top to bottom - as opposed to sporadically responding previously, and wish to correct some views/pass on my own opinions to some discussions which I didn't particularly spot before.
| The_Goat wrote: | So basically a 'highly overrated' Panesar knocked the living daylights out of 'the best players of spin in the world', while our own 'highly talented spinners' , bowling on pitches tailor made for them, were knocked all over the park by a couple of good batsmen from a team that allegedly 'does not know how to play spin' ???
To me that sounds ridiculous, no matter how I look at it. |
I think the fact that we are good players of spin is fast becoming a myth - partially due to the onslaught of Twenty20 onto the international and domestic calendar, and consequently because the Ranji is unable to produce any spinners of note anymore.
It says a lot when a busted flush like Harbhajan Singh is brought back onto the test team as a saviour and a specialist slow bowler. From all accounts, we were left with little choice in this matter - there are only 5 or 6 decent tweakers in the circuit underneath which there is nobody. I don't watch domestic cricket (who does?), but I reckon I can list them out off of one hand - Ravichandran Ashwin, Pragyan Ojha, Harbhajan Singh, Amit Mishra and Piyush Chawla. The strong culture of the Kumbles and Bedis has long since disappeared, for the mentioned worse.
Aakash Chopra's articles on Cricinfo constantly refer to this issue as well, including one as recently as today, listing out why the Pommy spinners Swann and Panesar appear more threatening to ours. Have a read here: http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/596889.html?CMP=chrome
| ssbmat wrote: | | The first thing that should happen is that the old fossil should be declared so and put into a museum. Enough of his personal-record fest. He is way past service age now..poor form with the bat and a liability in the fielding component too.. |
In any other country, he would have been disposed off as early as after the whitewash in England. For all the magnificence of his illustrious captaincy career, Ponting was more or less forced out of the job. Ditto a few months later with his one-day duties. Ditto a few months later with his test career at the WACA against the Saffers. Similar circumstances resulted in the departure of Steve Waugh after the 2003/4 home summer, and so on - and these are cricketers who are and were held in equally high regard in Australia as the Sach in this country.
Sadly, this attitude seems alien to the sub-continent. We are forced to endure the failings of past stalwarts toward the close of their careers, and they walk away in embarrassing fashion. Javed Miandad in the 1996 World Cup or Sanath Jayasuriya after a couple of ODIs against England last summer are examples of this trend - we just don't get this whole 'time to go' thing.
| mel111993 wrote: | an average of 40 is crap? Seriously?
Kohli is 38, Gambhir is 44, Yuvraj is 34, Laxman was 42, so if an average of 40 is crap, then we really have some serious problems here. |
Just to correct those averages,
MS Dhoni : 37.46
Virat Kohli : 35.81
Gautam Gambhir : 44.26
Yuvraj Singh : 33.92
VVS Laxman : 45.97
Now averages always come with a 'terms and conditions apply' tag, and Dhonut is let off the hook slightly thanks to him batting at #7 and his wicket-keeping duties. Comparing him to Laxette in this regard makes little sense.
That said, I can't for the life of me think of many innings at all where Dhonut has contributed with the bat. It's gotten to the point of me (and everyone else I'm sure) always expecting him to fail when presented with a crunch situation in either innings of a test match. The Australian tour was his lowest ebb - and his overall record there from 8 tests now, reads as a dismal 18.69. Surely we're not going to take him there come 2014/15 and push him forward as our 'captain' once again, whose only experience as being one in that territory is one of defeat? VVS Laxman, one of the names in your list above, still possesses an average of 49.85 in Australia, even after the recent carnage to his figures in the recent four test series.
Of course, Australia is just one example - it's the same nearly everyplace else. In fact, overseas, the only innings of note that helped us draw or win a game through his blade I can think of came about in the Lord's game during our victorious tour of 2007:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/258468.html
We managed to avoid defeat through the skin of our teeth, with one wicket left in hand. Even that was thanks to the incompetent Steve Bucknor adjudging Sreesanth not out toward the close, and rain pelting down shortly afterward. Have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sHtNRL5q8
| me111993 wrote: | | As for all the Anti-Dhoni people, to hell with captaincy, find us a Keeper/Batsman with a test average of 40 and an ODI average of 53 and then do raise your voice, who is a probable replacement, duck boy Saha or the man child Patel? |
I have my own views of Patel right from 2003, but I was very impressed with Saha's gritty knock of 35 in the first innings at Adelaide earlier in the year. This came about in only his second (and till date, last) test, when Dhonut was banned for a slow over rate at Perth.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2011/engine/match/518953.html
It was thanks to him spending time at his crease that resulted in Kohli going on to score his maiden ton at the other end. What are the chances that he expected to even be part of the tour beforehand?
I can't believe anyone who says that Dhoni is the best batsman-keeper option we've got. Anybody seems to better than the Dhonut with the bat. Get him away from the team, or we'll continue to see 180/5 degenerate into 225 all out. Our tail seems to be the worst going around in international cricket as well at present, and the problem is that the Dhonut has always been a part of it.
In the above context, Dhoni would have made 3 or 5 and left Kohli stranded at the other end.
| The_Goat wrote: | | I call his test captaincy bad because under him we were massacred in England and lost our No 1 ranking, we were massacred in Australia, and have beaten In India by an English team that was allegedly inferior to us in every respect. Thank heavens we didn't tour South Africa for a test series in the interim else we would have been hammered there too. |
We did tour South Africa recently, for a 3-game series in 2010/11. That has been the last series from memory when our team performed as per expectations, and their 1-1 result at the end of the tour preserved the #1 ranking for the following six months until we were taken apart in England.
| The_Goat wrote: | | Fletcher may not have had a great record when it comes to the teams winning (again, he doesn't bat , bowl or field) but he is responsible for the selection and coming of age of a number of English players, thanks to whom England is a side to reckon with now. Batsmen like Kevin Petersen, Alastair Cook, Eoin Morgan, Ian Bell and bowlers like James Anderson, Monty Paesar and Graeme Swann all made their debuts under his watch. He did a brilliant job of identifying talent, and also played a key role in persuading the stubborn counties to relieve the players for the national side. |
I disagree.
Fletcher was at the right place at the right time. Anybody would be, if you're put in charge of a disjointed, infighting eleven who have lost to New Zealand away and have thus slid to #8 in the rankings, above only Zimbabwe. The only way from that point on was up.
Kevin Pietersen came through during the 2005 Ashes, but seems like a Warne-style natural talent. Anybody could have been his batting coach but he would still blossom into KP.
Alastair Cook scored a century on debut in 2006 in Nagpur - where we're currently playing, coincidentally, after which his form tailed off quite spectacularly. Clueless Dunc then disposed of him, and brought the 2005 squad together for the tough Ashes tour of Australia in 2006/7 with the tactically naive Flintoff as captain. The players by then had disintegrated, spinner Giles' average had entered the 40s, and Harmison and Hoggard were bowling dross. Here is the first ball of that series, to explain where their minds were at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7Y6T44tzIc
In addition, Vaughan was injured prior to the start of the tour, and Trescothick started suffering from depression forcing him to miss it - which is when Cook was brought back in for those five tests. The vastly superior Aussies naturally were hungry for revenge after the freak loss of 2005, and they butchered that England side 5-0. Dunc could do nothing.
Fast forward to the Ashes of 2010/11, which saw Cook score 766 runs in the five tests and hand Australia as many as 3 innings defeats. In the meantime? Dunc coached us to Australia and got whiplashed again 4-0. This is in addition to his 2002/3 with England that resulted in a 4-1 loss.
Sorry, but I can't give this guy any credibility. He's possibly the worst cricket coach of all time.
Eoin Morgan was playing for Ireland in his early days, being Irish, and England poached him over to their team in 2008. Post Fletcher, who had nothing to do with it.
I don't consider Ian Bell a good batsman at all, while it is indeed true that he entered the side during Fletcher's reign. Guy is a mental pygmy and gets bamboozled by the slightest amount of turn, and Warney was one among many who profiteered from the 'Sherminator', as he affectionately refers to him in commentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVk7qNzm-Xc
I call him 'Bottle'.
His scores in the current series read 0, 23, 5, 28* and 1. I pretend to be a Kiwi troll on a Pakistani forum, and I started a thread in this regard prior to the start of the series, and it's been a roaring success so far, with each failure:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=161646
James Anderson, like Cook was underutilized during the early years and when presented with the first major challenge during the 2006/7 Ashes, bowled like a drain and was smacked around the park. Anderson was the highest wicket-taker in the 2010/11 Ashes though, but his overall average there still reads over 35, explaining how terrible he was in 06/7.
Monty Panesar's case is similar, except that he had a booming start to his career and became a fad for popular culture and the media, before he was brought down to earth through a loss of form and disposed from the side.
Graeme Swann played a singular ODI in 2000 under Fletcher's reign. Story goes that Dunc didn't rate him and he was chucked out until his return in 2009 under the superior Flower regime. You can hear a snippet of that in this podcast prior to the start of last year's India series:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/523880.html?genre=27
(Apologies for the long post)
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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oh dear, we're at it again.....
87/4 in reply for 330 As expected, Tendulkar failed with the bat, as did Sehwag and Gambhir.
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I fail to see how it is a surprising phenomenon anymore...
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sumantra
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | I fail to see how it is a surprising phenomenon anymore... |
Varun, that was a *superb* in-depth analysis in your previous post!
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: |
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As far as Tendulkar is concerned, the writing is on every Wall, Pillar, lamppost..If he cares to see of course..
If he doesnt go out now, then he will lose out on all the respect he has supposedly acquired over the years. |
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Spiderguy252
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ssbmat wrote: | As far as Tendulkar is concerned, the writing is on every Wall, Pillar, lamppost..If he cares to see of course..
If he doesnt go out now, then he will lose out on all the respect he has supposedly acquired over the years. |
Unfortunately, he's scored in Eden Gardens what you'd refer to as a 'career saving 55' so he's booked his slot for the Australian tests, barring a surprise retirement of which he has shown no signs of doing so far.
I also expect him to play in the pointless, irrelevant one-day games against the minnows of the format - Pakistan (3) and England (5), and score a few runs in both series. The cricketing public in this country, who don't realize the context of runs in the various formats, will be won over as will the media, who will stop calling for his head.
Dhonut will score some runs too I'm sure, and his test keeping, captaincy and batting spot will be retained for the foreseeable. It's a vicious cycle.
In fact, he is scoring an irrelevant half-century as we speak (78*), showing us how he pads his average in hopeless situations. Where was he when our backs were against the wall last innings of the last game? That's right, a second ball duck.
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me111993
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Spiderguy252 wrote: | | ssbmat wrote: | As far as Tendulkar is concerned, the writing is on every Wall, Pillar, lamppost..If he cares to see of course..
If he doesnt go out now, then he will lose out on all the respect he has supposedly acquired over the years. |
Unfortunately, he's scored in Eden Gardens what you'd refer to as a 'career saving 55' so he's booked his slot for the Australian tests, barring a surprise retirement of which he has shown no signs of doing so far.
I also expect him to play in the pointless, irrelevant one-day games against the minnows of the format - Pakistan (3) and England (5), and score a few runs in both series. The cricketing public in this country, who don't realize the context of runs in the various formats, will be won over as will the media, who will stop calling for his head.
Dhonut will score some runs too I'm sure, and his test keeping, captaincy and batting spot will be retained for the foreseeable. It's a vicious cycle.
In fact, he is scoring an irrelevant half-century as we speak (78*), showing us how he pads his average in hopeless situations. Where was he when our backs were against the wall last innings of the last game? That's right, a second ball duck. |
But in the same match he scored a half century too, in the first innings, and by no means is this innings irrelevant, he might just have saved the match for India,if not won it.
Plus if you plan on kicking someone out,you should have a replacement ready, who is better then the player concerned, unfortunately i just dont see that.
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