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Pakistan gets Chinese built AWACS.

 
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The_Goat
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Pakistan gets Chinese built AWACS. Reply with quote

Here it is. The platform is the Shaanxi Y-8, a much modified version of the AN-12




Anyone knows whether it is as or more capable than India's Israeli/Russian one?
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sabya99
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AWACS originated with large turbo bombers and then modern jet aircrafts were used as AWACS platforms. As a result from Tu-126 to IL-76, B737,707 numerous types of aircrafts were used in this role. IAF used IL-76 mounted AWACS ( Mainstay ) in 1971 Bangladesh war against PAF. Most modern AWACS are non rotating disk antenna. Given that AN-12 a very stable aircraft there is no reason why it could not be used in this role. IL-76 mounted AWACS have longer range and duration. Some fitted with air to air refueling system. This single aircraft changed the course of air to air combat in 1971 Bangladesh war!
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabya99 wrote:
IAF used IL-76 mounted AWACS ( Mainstay ) in 1971 Bangladesh war against PAF.
Dr. Ganguly, I am sorry, this is not correct. The aircraft used by the IAF was a single Tu-126 `Moss'. The Il-76 basic platform first went into service in 1971! The Be-50 `Mainstay' came in much later.
sabya99 wrote:
Given that AN-12 a very stable aircraft there is no reason why it could not be used in this role.
Again Dr. Ganguly, this is not correct. The only reason China went in with the An-12 derivative (the Y-8 ) was that this was the only large aircraft they had successfully produced, which would suffice for an A&EW platform. Second, the An-12 was not a very stable aircraft in even a single engine-out condition. You may recount the horrific crash in Africa - there was a YouTube video of the same, where it completely went upside down and crashed. Even the much-modified Y-8's stall characteristics are quite bad.
sabya99 wrote:
This single aircraft changed the course of air to air combat in 1971 Bangladesh war!
Again Dr. Ganguly, I am not very sure of this. My IAF friends point to the very limited radar effectiveness of the Tu-126 `Moss', which was used during the 1971 war. Do you have an IAF friend who told you about this, or did you get this from somewhere? One of my IAF friends whom I talked to about this knows a good bit about AE&W aircraft (and has served in Gwalior, where the A50 `Mainstays' can often be seen).
Cheers, Sumantra.
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sabya99
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sumantra, You are right as Moss was introduced 10 years earlier than Il-76 base Mainstay. But currently IAF use Il-76 based platform fitted with refueling probe. What I wrote was based on recollection of old information. But moss was a very effective aircraft in those days. Its radar, a vacuum technology machine was significantly EMP hardened and western experts praised them. By the way AWACS was not a Russian or US discovery. RAF first used AWACS to track down V1 rockets; they were so successful that RAF completely eliminated V1 threat. Germany had to depend on V2 rockets.
Yes, use of AWACS gave total air supremacy to IAF. I remember PAK generals complained to US counterpart about a high flying object deep inside Indian airspace controlling IAF fighter movement (Time or Foreign Affairs ). PAF did not have any tool to counteract this. Later CIA experts identified this as AWACS. Once AWACS were introduced PAF took a defensive position and IAF controlled the airspace over Punjab.
Most AWACS need not function in contested air space rather they are 200 miles away from dog fight zone. Under such a scenario AN-12 based AWACS will do a good job also.
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabya99 wrote:
Yes, use of AWACS gave total air supremacy to IAF.
Dr. Ganguly, you obviously have a source for this information, as you are confident about it. It is just that the IAF officer from whom I heard about this, says something which does not agree with what your (informed, no doubt) opinion is.
- He clearly contends that the ground clutter for the Tu-126 radar was considerable, and the signal interference due to the contra-rotating props did not help much.
- While the Russians continue with the Tu-95 and Tu-142 `Bears', the Tu-126 `Moss' was quickly phased out in favour of the Il-76 `Candid'-based platform, the Beriev A-50 `Mainstay'. The Tu-114s were phased out quite quickly, as was the Tu-126, though the much older Il-18/20/22 platforms are still in use. Were there airframe issues? The Tu-114/126 planes had an enviable safety record though, in their surprisingly brief period of use.
- Of course I know that AEW&C aircraft operate a good distance from the border.
sabya99 wrote:
Under such a scenario AN-12 based AWACS will do a good job also.
Dr. Ganguly, you may have missed my point - the An-12 platform is not a particularly stable one, given its limitations with regard to the dangerous stall loop on one engine out, and related issues. As for a platform, almost any medium-sized transport aircraft would do the job, a slower one actually being a bit better in cases. The An-12-based Y-8 is China's only aircraft suitable for the job.
Cheers, Sumantra.
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shivendrashukla
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am just surprised that so much info is available in public domain...
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivendrashukla wrote:
I am just surprised that so much info is available in public domain...
Shukla Sir, was that surprise, or exasperation Smile
Dr. Ganguly may have a point with a country having a very noisy signal AWACS input versus another, which had no eye in the sky, then.
The_Goat wrote:
Anyone knows whether it is as or more capable than India's Israeli/Russian one?
For the casual civilian, a Phalcon-fitted Aviadvigatel PS-90A powered Beriev A-50EI is a massive force multiplier. More so, when used in conjunction with the DRDO's version on the ERJ Jungle Jet platform.
Cheers, Sumantra.
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shivendrashukla
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumantra wrote:
shivendrashukla wrote:
I am just surprised that so much info is available in public domain...
Shukla Sir, was that surprise, or exasperation Smile


Lol. Both Professor Wink
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ssbmat
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sometimes doubt the efficacy of an AWACS platform for an Indo-Pak kind of situation. Pakistan is a geographically narrow country from east to west in most parts except south. AWACs patrolling near Rajasthan border can very much cover a lot of central pakistan, we do not even need to cross the border to control any conflict. The only advantage is that this is a mobile radar system, instead of ground based. But we could also use Satellites and UAVs isnt it ?

I thought AWACS was a more useful platform for war theaters situated away from the homeland.
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The_Goat
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssbmat wrote:
I sometimes doubt the efficacy of an AWACS platform for an Indo-Pak kind of situation. Pakistan is a geographically narrow country from east to west in most parts except south. AWACs patrolling near Rajasthan border can very much cover a lot of central pakistan, we do not even need to cross the border to control any conflict. The only advantage is that this is a mobile radar system, instead of ground based. But we could also use Satellites and UAVs isnt it ?



True, but Pakistan probably need it more than India does, given the depth of India's territory and the presence of long range missiles in our arsenal.

All this means, of course, that they envisage a scenario in which we attack them first. As if we don't have anything better to do....
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jabeen100
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pakistan has made good decision to get Awacs from China. Awacs is made with latest technology. It will help us for the war.

Last edited by jabeen100 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vivekman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jabeen100 wrote:
It will help us for the war.


Which war?
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