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aarbee Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: Air India - B757, BOM-AMD-KWI |
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Air India - B757, BOM-AMD-KWI
Posted this on A.net yesterday. No absolute responses. Any idea out here? |
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iflytb20 Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 1079 Location: Next to the Airport
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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i hrd the BOM-KWI flights were "sold" to another airline....forgot which one.
AI has stopped ops to KWI from BOM...so maybe the 757 belongs to the "buyer" airline |
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aarbee Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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iflytb20 wrote: | i hrd the BOM-KWI flights were "sold" to another airline....forgot which one.
AI has stopped ops to KWI from BOM...so maybe the 757 belongs to the "buyer" airline |
Huh! That's the first I've heard. "Selling" routes and that too for AI's gulf flights. hey might have wet leased the aircraft. |
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iflytb20 Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 1079 Location: Next to the Airport
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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yups...me thinks so too..wet lease is possible...but you know these "avn experts"...i hrd it 4m an "expert" at the air show....will get it confirmed 4m mah pals in AI......so stndby |
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the_380 Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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aarbee wrote: |
Huh! That's the first I've heard. "Selling" routes and that too for AI's gulf flights. |
Seems you don't know the trick between 9W and S2 getting such profitable intl routes _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld
A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! |
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aarbee Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:33 am Post subject: |
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the_380 wrote: | aarbee wrote: |
Huh! That's the first I've heard. "Selling" routes and that too for AI's gulf flights. |
Seems you don't know the trick between 9W and S2 getting such profitable intl routes |
Huh! Hmm! I'm not sure if I got U there! 9W and S2 do not have the gulf routes yet precisely because of AI/IC right? |
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HAWK21M Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 8132 Location: Mumbai, INDIA
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Only B757s departing BOM are Ethiopean & Blue Dart.Probably a Typo for AI B767.
regds
MEL _________________ Think of the Brighter side !!! |
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avbuff Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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even Royal Nepal Airlines operate a B757 to mumbai |
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the_380 Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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aarbee wrote: |
Huh! Hmm! I'm not sure if I got U there! 9W and S2 do not have the gulf routes yet precisely because of AI/IC right? |
Gulf routes are yet protected because of the ploicy made by the BJP govt ... also Gulf did not want india's private airlines _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld
A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! |
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Aiel Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 927 Location: Bangalore
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="the_380"] aarbee wrote: |
also Gulf did not want india's private airlines |
But we get their private airlines? _________________ My Flickr photos
My JP.net account |
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VABBy Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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the_380 wrote: | also Gulf did not want india's private airlines |
R u sure about this ??? Becoz during the NDA regime it was the opposition which was making a big hue and cry about allowing eligible pvt airlines to fly international. Thats wen a policy came up where for a certain period of time only the Govt airlines cud fly to gulf and after which the market wud have been opened to fair competetion...
Gulf countries are progressive nations i guess they never had any objection as to who is operating frm their airports . Anyone and everyone who has the ability to moot flights to their country is welcome...
If u really have some article or link which proves ur hypothesis plzzz do share thanks.... _________________ Expeditors- You'd be surprised how far we will go for you www.expeditors.com |
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the_380 Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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VABBy at the moment at the moment i don't have the article when i get it i'll be sure to put it up here _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld
A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! |
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Karan69 Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1334
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I saw the 757-200 today land, as i was waiting for my dealyed GO Air departure to BLR for the airshow, i clicked a photo which unfirtunately has not come out so good because of the light conditions.
Infact wat i mentioned yesterday being a Wet Lease A310 from a Turkish Carrier is actually a Wetlease 757-200 from a Turkish Carrier. Apologies for that mistake
If i remember the scheme rightly --yoll know how difficult it is to spot a different aircraft while awaiting departure, the aircraft belogs to Golden International Airline.
<twoid>
The Golden International titles are replaced by Air India titles
Karan |
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HAWK21M Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 8132 Location: Mumbai, INDIA
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Karan69 wrote: | I saw the 757-200 today land, as i was waiting for my dealyed GO Air departure to BLR for the airshow, i clicked a photo which unfirtunately has not come out so good because of the light conditions.
Infact wat i mentioned yesterday being a Wet Lease A310 from a Turkish Carrier is actually a Wetlease 757-200 from a Turkish Carrier. Apologies for that mistake
If i remember the scheme rightly --yoll know how difficult it is to spot a different aircraft while awaiting departure, the aircraft belogs to Golden International Airline.
<twoid>
The Golden International titles are replaced by Air India titles
Karan |
Where is this Long Halting.What Type Powerplant.
regds
MEL _________________ Think of the Brighter side !!! |
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COUGAR Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Why the 757? Why Now? Can their 737-800' snot handle the route in question: BOM-AMD-KWI-MAA-KWI-AMD-BOM??
Their own AIX 738's, configured in all-economy layout are being leased out to IC and one of them is even headed to a pvt airline looking for additional lift, simply because AI was recvg these aircraft faster than it could deploy them: a case of too much too soon! But surely these 737's could have been used for their "all-economy" flights to KWI?
Their PNQ-DXB flight is doing exceptionally well. Surely they could have boosted frequency with more 737's coming in? There are a dozen routes that AIX could have used its 738's on, market research having already been doen by them when they pitching the ministry for buying the 737-800's. TRZ is one station that comes to mind.
In this background, why bring in a single aircraft of a brand new type with all its attendant costs etc? I mean whats the point? I remember when AI leased 2 A310's from Kenya Airways which were so different from the rest of the fleet that they caused a lot of integration problems. And the 757 is awhole different aircraft from whatever AI operates?
WTF are these guys thinking? To me this seems like another Caribjet: where leasing is directly linked to kickbacks. Either that or their AIX pilots are playing games over pay etc. Whatever: this merits investigation! _________________ http://www.cougar-rides.com
<B>Live to Ride - Ride to Live</B>
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Karan69 Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1334
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | In this background, why bring in a single aircraft of a brand new type with all its attendant costs etc? I mean whats the point? I remember when AI leased 2 A310's from Kenya Airways which were so different from the rest of the fleet that they caused a lot of integration problems. And the 757 is awhole different aircraft from whatever AI operates? |
Altough i agree with your analysis that the 757 is an odd ball in the fleet, and they coukld have easily operated the 738 that they have leased to IC, but the 757 is a wtlease deal so it takes care by itself of integration part of it
But as you pointed out what baffles me also is why they did not put the 738s on the KWI routes---perhaps cargo loads---you never know with AI what is up???
Karan |
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D-ABTH Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 837 Location: VABB :: BOM
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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i can confirm the 757 is operated by AI.. seen it first on the 5th or 6th night.. was parked on the remote bay opposite gate 5 _________________ If it aint Boeing.. I aint going. |
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COUGAR Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Karan: a wetlease agreement takes care of crew, and in case of an ACMI kind of deal maintenance as well. However these deals have all the costs factored in and so work out much much more expensive.
If the aircraft being leased was of a fleet type operated and for which AI already has maintenance facilities, like the A310, B744, 777 or the 738 costs would have been much much lower.
In any case the 757 is a no-brainer since it shares nothing in common and brings no benefit to AI. The question is why didnt they use one of their own all-economy 737's? Many of AIX 737's are actually flown as Air India operations with AI flight numbers and in "full service" mode.
I dont think it has anything to do with cargo loads either. AI is loosing 23 crores in revenue EVERY WEEK from just its TRV operations because it has replaced its entire A310 ops from TRV to Gulf to the 738.
The problem that you see with AI is that leasing is typically done through people the ops department knows personally: Current/Former AI employees who know people in AI, and now conduct a profitable business in leasing either directly or through their relatives. Corruption is steeped into the culture of AI. Indeed lets investigate who brokered the deal for the 757 and indeed the deal for the 3 ex-UA T7's and now the ex-UA 744's. 2 very interesting names keep coming up!
Suitability to operations and things like that hardly matter. What matters is how well you know people!
So heres how I would say it worked: A brokering company had on its list 6 planes to "place" before the end of the quarter and sends out a email to all people in their "workgroup". One of the people is a certain influential powerbroker based in North America who has connections with a number of airlines but for whom Air India is "home". Our mr.Power broker agress to help work out something. 2 aircraft end up with an African carrier, but one 757 is causing some problems being a complete oddball. So the old Air india connection is revived! And lo! Helpful people within AI are ever ready to help out! in return for a consideration of course!
So even with brand new 738's joining the fleet at the rate of 1/2 every month, a decision is taken to wetlease a 757! Why 757? Well now you know the answer!! This is Caribjet part-II!!
Let us get cracking and investigate this further! Let us check the loads and yields that AI is getting on the routes that the 757 was deployed on and let us come to a firm answer on whether it would have been more profitable to have deployed their own 737-800 on this route instead of deploying the 757 with all its attendant costs!
Some things never change! _________________ http://www.cougar-rides.com
<B>Live to Ride - Ride to Live</B>
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D-ABTH Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 837 Location: VABB :: BOM
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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you think you could make use of RTI on that info you seek Roy? _________________ If it aint Boeing.. I aint going. |
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COUGAR Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Even beofre that lets get a source within AI to dig out the info on loads etc. _________________ http://www.cougar-rides.com
<B>Live to Ride - Ride to Live</B>
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Karan69 Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1334
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Roy, good post i will give you my full support whereever possible, and let me know if i can be of service in any way.
because i also honestly believe that the 757 is too much of an odd ball in the fleet especially with spare 738s lying around, also the Combis just do the BOM-DEL-BKK-NRT or BOM-DEL-NRT so if loads are justifiable they can easily be rescheduled to operate the KWI flights.
I do not know about the authenticity of what you have written, but it does seem to be the way that things unfortunately work out in our country.
But AFAIK, the 757 is wetleased directly from the charter opertor Golden International, who operate only 1 757 in their fleet, so probably this Wetlease even includes the maintainance.
But nevertheless i do agree that the job could have been done by 737-800s just as well or better still by our reliable old A310s
So as you say lets track this flight.
Karan |
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the_380 Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2329 Location: Mumbai, India
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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A wetlease must be difnately be more costlier than a dry lease so if AI would have wet leased another 737-800 then it would have been much cheaper. I find some money eating matter involvement out here _________________ http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld
A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! |
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aarbee Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
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VABBy wrote: | the_380 wrote: | also Gulf did not want india's private airlines |
R u sure about this ??? Becoz during the NDA regime it was the opposition which was making a big hue and cry about allowing eligible pvt airlines to fly international. Thats wen a policy came up where for a certain period of time only the Govt airlines cud fly to gulf and after which the market wud have been opened to fair competetion...
Gulf countries are progressive nations i guess they never had any objection as to who is operating frm their airports . Anyone and everyone who has the ability to moot flights to their country is welcome...
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This was my understanding too. I thought GOI wanted to milk the gulf runs for AI/IC.
Also I would be surprised if a city like Dubai which is positioning itself to be the world (economic) capital would not want private carriers from India.
How are the bilaterals between India - UAE, Kuwait, etc. |
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aarbee Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: |
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COUGAR wrote: | Why the 757? Why Now? Can their 737-800' snot handle the route in question: BOM-AMD-KWI-MAA-KWI-AMD-BOM??
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Did'nt realize , MAA was also into picture.
So theoretically there is a one stop from AMD-MAA via KWI. LOL |
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COUGAR Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: |
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No! look carefully!
Its BOM-AMD-KWI-MAA-KWI-AMD-BOM _________________ http://www.cougar-rides.com
<B>Live to Ride - Ride to Live</B>
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Karan69 Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 1334
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Air India will get on wet lease one Airbus A310 -325 C/n 674
Reg OK-YAD ,wet-leased from 01mar07 in hybrid cs for one year.
Owned by Wilmington Trust Company, the aircraft was with Delta,
Air Jamica, Air Maldives,Khalifa and CSA Czech (as OK-YAD).
Well this time it seems confirmed.
Karan |
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VABBy Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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any news as to where this one is being deployed?? _________________ Expeditors- You'd be surprised how far we will go for you www.expeditors.com |
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aarbee Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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VABBy wrote: | any news as to where this one is being deployed?? |
From my understanding BOM-AMD-KWI, CCU-KWI |
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