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jasepl
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 4257
Location: bund-bay
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 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: India to Europe : how five airlines measure up |
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Having flown five airlines between India and Europe in the last year or so, I thought I'd do a quick compare on how they stack up against each other.
This is in no way a scientific or weighted compare, nor does it look at all aspects of the travel experience.
It is simply a head-to-head amongst five airlines, based on how they fared on things that are typically important (in general and to me personally).
Some things that one would consider important have deliberately been ignored (eg: Sahar security) because the airlines have no control over them.
And it's a pretty straightforward way of ranking: 5 for the airline that performed best and 1 for the one that did worst. Only where they were all the same (eg: the same Sahar lounge for AF and DL) have I ranked them equally.
Also, just because I gave an airline a 1 doesn't necessarily mean they were crap in that aspect; it could simply be that they were not bad, but others were better. It’s a ranking too, not merely a score.
The Airlines:
- Air France
AF are certainly not the best at anything, but they are middle-of-the-pack at almost everything. They do manage to achieve this mediocrity very consistenly indeed.
- British Airways
BA excelled on the ground, on departure from Sahar and upon arrival at Heathrow. On the plane, however, not so much, with the exception of the crew, who were brilliant.
- Delta Air Lines
Delta's hard product is ageing, no doubt. Their J cabin is often reminiscent of a bygone era. But they have maintained the hardware well and more than made up for it with an great soft product. The exceptional crew and superb service style stand out, head and shoulders above the others.
- Jet Airways
Hardware wise, Jet are better than most airlines I have flown. That makes it so much more the pity that everything else is a shambles (led by the now chronically clueless crew). And given BOM is Jet’s home base, the disgraceful ground experience is nothing short of abominable.
- Swiss
Swiss are somewhat similar to Air France, albeit a great notch better. Nearly everything in the air was just above average. On the ground in BOM, they're the same as most of the foreign airlines. The extra point they could have got for having a lounge at Sahar was taken away because said lounge was more crowded than a Bori Bunder platform at 7 pm.
Their Product:
- On the ground
BA were clearly the best (at both the India and European end) and Jet the worst (by a considerable margin).
- In the air
- hard product: Jet's planes are kitted out better than the others for sure. BA's Club World, on the other hand, whilst revolutionary at one point, has seen better days.
- soft product: no one came close to marching Delta's performance; not in terms of the amenities and catering nor in terms of the crew's capability and service style. At the other end, we have Jet Airways.
- Overall travel experience
In the end, it is as much about the whole as it is about the individual pieces, at least in my opinion. And usually, I have found, a consistent 3 across the board makes for a better end-to-end experience than a cluster of 5s and 1s.
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
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Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Ooh - the home carrier's score of 27 seems like a miserable state to be in!
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jasepl
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | Ooh - the home carrier's score of 27 seems like a miserable state to be in! |
It is a travesty, because their hard product is superb, even after all these years.
But it is the ground experience at home base and the crew in the air that drag the whole operation down, in my opinion.
Foreign airlines with at most one or two flights out of BOM offer a better ground product; there can be no excuse for that, really. And as for the crew, well, that's what you get when you recruit from the playground I suppose.
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justbala
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1898
Location: Bangalore
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | Ooh - the home carrier's score of 27 seems like a miserable state to be in! |
Nimish - you need to factor in a "jasepl-bias" component into that rating!! 
I am surprised you rate LX and BA IFE content higher than 9W (never flown AF or DL. hence no comment on that), but personally i have found the content in 9W much better than BA or LX (the latter seem to think Zayed Khan is a huge superstar in India!!)
Of all the European carriers I have taken,OS seem to have the best crew and meals, too bad their hard product is dated. |
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jasepl
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 4257
Location: bund-bay
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| justbala wrote: | | Nimish - you need to factor in a "jasepl-bias" component into that rating!! |
Well, I wouldn't call it a bias.
But certainly, there is a (perfectly legitimate) expectation that the home carrier should provide more facilities and do a better job at the home base than a foreign airline with at most one or two flights. And it's not as if BOM is a flagship route for most of these foreign airlines that they're pushing the boat out.
The poor ratings for Jet are primarily in :
- inadequate check-in desks and long queues
- no lounge
- remote parking meaning bus boarding, meaning having to wait in the bus for up to 15 minutes until it fills up
- no arrivals lounge at the other end
Besides that, we have the crew. And clueless children will generally get a poor rating from me regardless of airline. It just so happens, of these five, Jet are the only ones with the kindergarten in the galley.
Oh, and it's a ranking more than a rating. If it were purely a rating, I would give Jet's crew a minus 5 .
| justbala wrote: | | I am surprised you rate LX and BA IFE content higher than 9W (never flown AF or DL. hence no comment on that), but personally i have found the content in 9W much better than BA or LX (the latter seem to think Zayed Khan is a huge superstar in India!!) |
This one, I suppose, is a combination of variety and personal preference. There might be more choice in Bollywood programming, but that's not what I want to watch, so...
Plus the localisation on Jet is almost non-existent, which is odd, given how it seems to be all about connecting Johannesburg with Bangkok and Milan with Hong Kong.
I mean it's nice that they claim to be showing a Swedish movie this month, but they don't even fly to Sweden (or anywhere close). What about Italian or Flemish or Cantonese or Thai?
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justbala
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Location: Bangalore
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: | | justbala wrote: | | Nimish - you need to factor in a "jasepl-bias" component into that rating!! |
Well, I wouldn't call it a bias.
But certainly, there is a (perfectly legitimate) expectation that the home carrier should provide more facilities and do a better job at the home base than a foreign airline with at most one or two flights. And it's not as if BOM is a flagship route for most of these foreign airlines that they're pushing the boat out.
The poor ratings for Jet are primarily in :
- inadequate check-in desks and long queues
- no lounge
- remote parking meaning bus boarding, meaning having to wait in the bus for up to 15 minutes until it fills up
- no arrivals lounge at the other end
Besides that, we have the crew. And clueless children will generally get a poor rating from me regardless of airline. It just so happens, of these five, Jet are the only ones with the kindergarten in the galley.
Oh, and it's a ranking more than a rating. If it were purely a rating, I would give Jet's crew a minus 5 .
| justbala wrote: | | I am surprised you rate LX and BA IFE content higher than 9W (never flown AF or DL. hence no comment on that), but personally i have found the content in 9W much better than BA or LX (the latter seem to think Zayed Khan is a huge superstar in India!!) |
This one, I suppose, is a combination of variety and personal preference. There might be more choice in Bollywood programming, but that's not what I want to watch, so...
Plus the localisation on Jet is almost non-existent, which is odd, given how it seems to be all about connecting Johannesburg with Bangkok and Milan with Hong Kong.
I mean it's nice that they claim to be showing a Swedish movie this month, but they don't even fly to Sweden (or anywhere close). What about Italian or Flemish or Cantonese or Thai? |
Well to be fair, they do have French, Italian and Chinese movies on board ... of course you have to nitpick on the technicalities of Chinese v/s Mandarin/Cantonese/Hokkein..
But even on the English front, the IFE on 9W is way better than the fare on LX/BA. Not sure exactly what you are looking for other than the nits to pick!!
Personally, I have never had a problem with the 9W crew. Again would rank them much higher than LX and BA. I am talking abt a crew that managed to handle a 77W full of pax during a emergency landing at ESB and a 3 hour unscheduled halt thereafter. Have had excellent experience with their ground staff as well - the baggage service staff @ BOM domestic going on to print my visa document, even though I was flying onward on QR.
I always thought 9W had sufficient check in counters @ T2. The whole section at Gate A is dedicated to 9W plus counters near Gate C. Usually am through checked in from BLR, but on the occasions that I had to check in @ BOM, I have never found the queues to be time consuming.
The only point tht I concur with you is on the lack of a dedicated lounge. That does suck. But otherwise 9W is not as bad as you make it out to be. After SQ, 9W is my airline of choice and now my defacto carrier while flying into the middle east. |
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me111993
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Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 3225
Location: MAA/AMD
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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The terms "clueless and dumb" that jasepl so often associates with 9W's Crew has come up post a 9W vs GF trip-report on a.net a few months ago, who's author might've once mentioned that the crew was clueless. The interesting thing is that jasepl says "over the past 2 years" jet's crew has deteriorated; knowing the way he posts on the forum, if he has something to bitch about, he will do it! Particularly if that thing is desi!
| Quote: | Personally, I have never had a problem with the 9W crew. Again would rank them much higher than LX and BA. I am talking abt a crew that managed to handle a 77W full of pax during a emergency landing at ESB and a 3 hour unscheduled halt thereafter. Have had excellent experience with their ground staff as well - the baggage service staff @ BOM domestic going on to print my visa document, even though I was flying onward on QR.
I always thought 9W had sufficient check in counters @ T2. The whole section at Gate A is dedicated to 9W plus counters near Gate C. Usually am through checked in from BLR, but on the occasions that I had to check in @ BOM, I have never found the queues to be time consuming. |
this is the majority opinion. Any frequent flyer you talk to.
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theflyingsikh
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Posts: 551
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think AF ground handling for Indian flights is the worse of the lot. You have to see this middle aged Indian Female Supervisor dressed in a Saree at CDG assigned at the gate for AF flights to BOM/DEL which I think depart at the same time.
You got to see how she talks to Elderly Indians and people who cant speak much of English/French..
She goes like "Ey jaane ka nahi hai kya...paris main hi rehne ka hai kya..tum logo ko ek baar off load kiya to sab samaj aye ga chalo chalo... Ey tunay suna nahi kya... she talks with a lot of tu tu and not AAP.
She once tried playing this trick with me and I gave her a piece of my mind..Not tht I travel with AF very often.
Oh yes and their ground staff at Mumbai have learned all these tricks from their French counterparts and almost do the same stuff.
BA can be hit and miss. Their club world is a msytery maze for me. Food is usually sad. Hence they are not my 1st carrier of choice to India.
LX with a average product is fussy about everything. Even a kilo extra is a problem for them.
Havent flown DL
Cant complain about Jet as for me they give the most convenient connections on the routes I travel. Most of the time the crew would recognise me and I get to travel M.A.A.S with A porter to even carry my cabin bag... So no complaints from me considering these benefits...
Yes I do agree with the poor ground arrangements in Mumbai with regards to premium check in ,fast track security,dedicated lounge etc...
But I'm still Looking forward to my next long haul with them in 2 weeks 
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Jaysit
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 4346
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like we're flying different versions of the same airline.
Or else you got really lucky with DL's soft product on the BOM-AMS route. |
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ssbmat
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Posts: 1710
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Why isnt Air India in all of this ? Surely it merits comparision ? |
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jasepl
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 4257
Location: bund-bay
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t know about emergencies; thankfully I’ve never been in one, on any airline.
But on the day-to-day performance, I do find Jet’s crew to be awful. They weren’t always – I have praised them to the skies myself a few times in the past. I think I even used the word sublime. And the best crew performance I have encountered, on any flight ever, was on a Jet flight from MAA to BOM. But again, that was a while ago.
My personal problems with the Jet crew?
1. Taking two hours to finish what is basically a glorified beverage service. Which means the cabin lights are on for nearly half of an already short late-night flight.
2. Gossiping loudly in the galleys.
3. Over-familiarity with friends / family / neighbours / regulars on the plane. It’s one thing to treat known people nicer or to say a quick hello to them or whatever. But standing in the aisle and having a loud, long conversation with them in the middle of the night – to the annoyance of other passengers – is a whole different matter.
As for safety matters, I’ve myself been on two Jet flights where they didn’t bother to check if service items were collected or seat belts were fastened – clearly because they were busy gossiping (I could hear and see them). But that’s not a big deal.
What was disgraceful though – and I was only partly involved in this, since a friend was on the flight and I only saw photos and helped with correspondence – was when the children completely ignored securing the cabin for landing and half the cabin went flying around on touchdown. And when Jet were contacted, he was basically told “You’re lying. Now eff off.”
These are all things I associate with not knowing how to deliver a premium airline service (which means much more than handing out food and collecting headsets).
Perhaps it’s more a result of personal preference, but I don’t think it is a coincidence that crew performance is linked to age. 19-year old children are generally clueless, regardless or employer or nationality or profession.
The one possible exception might be SQ, because the poor things are so regimented. And as much as I dislike the SQ-style kowtowing service approach, I’d still take that over Jet’s cabin children. At least the SQ crew don’t talk and giggle near as much. Same with the AI ladies – they’ve always known how to do their job at least.
As for the ground performance, I don’t care about a lounge at BOM myself personally. Unless there are long delays (or you have no money and turns out there are no cash machines at the airport!) a lounge is of little use to me at my home airport.
But the check-in queues and the bus boarding do get old after some time. Especially when one experiences something very different on another airline.
And yes, the check-in queues are long and slow, at least whenever I’ve flown Jet in the recent past. They have two or three premium desks open at the nighttime peak, which is not near enough.
I’ll try to remember to take a photo next time I’m at Sahar during the midnight madness.
And again, these are all my own opinions, based on my own experiences and partly a function of my own preferences. I am not trying to pass of a glorified third hand account of someone's else's experience as first hand fact.
| theflyingsikh wrote: | I think AF ground handling for Indian flights is the worse of the lot. You have to see this middle aged Indian Female Supervisor dressed in a Saree at CDG assigned at the gate for AF flights to BOM/DEL which I think depart at the same time.
You got to see how she talks to Elderly Indians and people who cant speak much of English/French..
She goes like "Ey jaane ka nahi hai kya...paris main hi rehne ka hai kya..tum logo ko ek baar off load kiya to sab samaj aye ga chalo chalo... Ey tunay suna nahi kya... she talks with a lot of tu tu and not AAP. |
That’s entirely possible. The French can be very rude, no doubt about it. And the desi French can be even ruder to desi desis, no doubt about that either.
I haven’t encountered this awful women or her wrath yet though. But given how I frequently fly AF to BOM out of CDG, I probably will soon enough. And if she is as surly as that, I will bitch about that too!
| Jaysit wrote: | It looks like we're flying different versions of the same airline.
Or else you got really lucky with DL's soft product on the BOM-AMS route. |
Entirely possible. Like I said, this was an assessment of one single Delta flight. Perhaps they are indeed regularly very good, or perhaps they’re usually awful and something went wrong to make this one flight superb.
Though nothing could be nastier than the crew from when Northwest flew the route. It is amazing that the same friendly DL faces were once the NW monsters!
I will say though, that Delta have definitely made tremendous improvements in their soft product in the last few years. And I say that based on comparing my BOM-CDG flights from a few years ago with the recent BOM-AMS flight.
| ssbmat wrote: | | Why isnt Air India in all of this ? Surely it merits comparision ? |
Simply because I haven’t personally flown Air India to Europe in a long time, and what I attempted to do with this compare was provide my opinion on the five airlines I have flown between India and Europe in the last year or so.
Comparing an AI flight from the 90s with a Jet flight of today is completely apples and oranges.
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justbala
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: |
My personal problems with the Jet crew?
1. Taking two hours to finish what is basically a glorified beverage service. Which means the cabin lights are on for nearly half of an already short late-night flight.
2. Gossiping loudly in the galleys.
3. Over-familiarity with friends / family / neighbours / regulars on the plane. It’s one thing to treat known people nicer or to say a quick hello to them or whatever. But standing in the aisle and having a loud, long conversation with them in the middle of the night – to the annoyance of other passengers – is a whole different matter.
As for safety matters, I’ve myself been on two Jet flights where they didn’t bother to check if service items were collected or seat belts were fastened – clearly because they were busy gossiping (I could hear and see them). But that’s not a big deal.
But the check-in queues and the bus boarding do get old after some time. Especially when one experiences something very different on another airline.
And yes, the check-in queues are long and slow, at least whenever I’ve flown Jet in the recent past. They have two or three premium desks open at the nighttime peak, which is not near enough.
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I am surprised at this again. I have had issues with 9W crew being a stickler to the books. They are the ones who stop distributing welcome drinks/newspapers, the moment the security video begins to play on the PTVs. That can be irritating at times when you are really parched and the FA was just at the row ahead of you.
I have always had the crew come around securing the cabin (even picking up trash dropped on the floor) before landing and the IFS coming around re-checking it. Even on short hop flights they have a crew strength of 8 just to get a meal service done and dusted in under an hour.
Regarding the lines at 9W counter, again surprising. Everytime I flew via BOM, i have seen near empty lines at 9W and snaking ones at EK!! Felt bad for 9W!! . But then again with a large number of connecting pax, both domestic and international , who are through checked in, the number of people checking in at BOM would not be that large.
Bussing passengers to/from the terminal is purely an operational call. EK does that a lot and QR exclusively. I am yet to land in DXB on an early morning flight from India or a late night flight from UK that was given a jetbridge. Its always the remote stand near the Dubai flower center. Similarly with BA.
P.S - abt the gossip and loud conversations, I can barely hear anything over the engines and IFE. Maybe not gifted with Vulcan hearing!! |
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airindia787
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Posts: 770
Location: DAB & ZTF
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| jasepl wrote: |
| Jaysit wrote: | It looks like we're flying different versions of the same airline.
Or else you got really lucky with DL's soft product on the BOM-AMS route. |
Entirely possible. Like I said, this was an assessment of one single Delta flight. Perhaps they are indeed regularly very good, or perhaps they’re usually awful and something went wrong to make this one flight superb.
Though nothing could be nastier than the crew from when Northwest flew the route. It is amazing that the same friendly DL faces were once the NW monsters!
I will say though, that Delta have definitely made tremendous improvements in their soft product in the last few years. And I say that based on comparing my BOM-CDG flights from a few years ago with the recent BOM-AMS flight.
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I agree with jasepl, DL's service and product has improved by leaps and bounds over the past few years from its lows of the mid 2000s. A few years ago I would have never considered DL for long haul travel, but a flight to MAD last year made DL my favorite US airline. Of course they are nowhere near SQ/CX, but they are better than even many EU airlines like AF and possibly even LH.
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texdravid
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 971
Location: GREAT STATE OF TEXAS
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:21 am Post subject: |
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She goes like "Ey jaane ka nahi hai kya...paris main hi rehne ka hai kya..tum logo ko ek baar off load kiya to sab samaj aye ga chalo chalo... Ey tunay suna nahi kya... she talks with a lot of tu tu and not AAP.
She once tried playing this trick with me and I gave her a piece of my mind..Not tht I travel with AF very often.
If any person on any airline tried to talk to me in Hindi, I most vehemently would give them hell and a piece of my mind. Speak English, or don't speak at all. I may be Indian, but I am a TEXAN. Don't just casually assume I speak Hindustani or whatever language.
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avbuff
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Posts: 5031
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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@jasepl
While I agree your assessment of 9W, BA, LX to an extent; you are the only person I've encountered (other than some AF apologists on anet) who rave about DL and AF. AF and DL, according to colleagues, business partners; share the same rating as you rate AI and IT. |
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jasepl
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 4257
Location: bund-bay
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| avbuff wrote: | @jasepl
While I agree your assessment of 9W, BA, LX to an extent; you are the only person I've encountered (other than some AF apologists on anet) who rave about DL and AF. AF and DL, according to colleagues, business partners; share the same rating as you rate AI and IT. |
Well, I din't really rave about AF. Never have.
They're more or less mediocre across the board. And even if that mediocrity is consistent, it still results in largely a set of 3s.
Delta, on the other hand, I found to be absolutely brilliant, even taking into account their relatively ancient fleet and antiquated product. For the reasons detailed above.
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