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3 EX-UA 747-400s to AI

 
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Karan69
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: 3 EX-UA 747-400s to AI Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

The United 747-400s were parked in the Victorville (VCV) desert for some time and have been made air worthy to be ferried to China,Pusan and Taipei for refurbishment and painting before delivery to AI.

Thread:United 747-400's At Victorville

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3206579/

N179UA is in China since Jan 07

N192UA left VCV on Friday 12/01/07 for Gimhae Int'l airport code KPK or RKPK (Pusan - S Korea)

N106UA was ferried to Taiwan on Fri, 9th Feb (confirmed by Skyliner-Aviation that it is for AI)

N185UA is still at VCV, faces many issues (parts) that could delay her departure for a long while.

None of these 744s are owned by United and 3 of the 4 will be with AI soon.

Well this should certainly help AI sort out its scheduling problems and be easier for their logistics and operations department.

Karan
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More rustbuckets! Congrats AI!
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D-ABTH
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good to know AI is boosting capacity
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy.......Your term is Worldfamous now Smile

Nice to see an Increase in the Fleet.What type Powerplants for them.
regds
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selecta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
More rustbuckets! Congrats AI!


rust buckets... not!!!

planes are like wine, they get better with age.
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Last edited by selecta on Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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D-ABTH
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

selecta wrote:
COUGAR wrote:
More rustbuckets! Congrats AI!


rust buckets... ok

planes are like wine, they get better with age.


lol..sure they do..
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selecta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D-ABTH wrote:
selecta wrote:
COUGAR wrote:
More rustbuckets! Congrats AI!


rust buckets... ok

planes are like wine, they get better with age.


lol..sure they do..


not my words, they're from an NTSB official

btw, it seems like these all leases? because they're registered with US banks
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the_380
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lols Karan posts the same topic in Anet also and N1120A a member there posts "More United rustbuckets for Air India huh" Laughing while Roy here posts "More rustbuckets! Congrats AI!" Wink
Seems a lot of similarities in this deal Razz

PS: Link to post by Karan in Anet
Its the second reply
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VABBy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

selecta wrote:
COUGAR wrote:
planes are like wine, they get better with age.


Wink Dnt tell me thats true then why is that we all men often are ready to pounce upon mint fresh virjin planes which have started flying recently and complain of worn out interiors on old ones
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selecta
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VABBy wrote:
selecta wrote:
COUGAR wrote:
planes are like wine, they get better with age.


Wink Dnt tell me thats true then why is that we all men often are ready to pounce upon mint fresh virjin planes which have started flying recently and complain of worn out interiors on old ones


I hear what your are saying but to call airplanes that were manufactured in 91-93 rust buckets, wow!!! lol

These particular airframes are in their teens year IMO with a good amount of life left in them.

I'm glad somebody else was able to pick them after they completed their tenure at UA. Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_380 wrote:
Lols Karan posts the same topic in Anet also and N1120A a member there posts "More United rustbuckets for Air India huh" Laughing while Roy here posts "More rustbuckets! Congrats AI!" Wink
Seems a lot of similarities in this deal Razz

PS: Link to post by Karan in Anet
Its the second reply

That is because everybody at A.net knows Roy rather well. I am sure that french guy was refering to him.

IMHO!! Let the rustbuckets flowing in....we need them.
rgds
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For aircraft like the 737/A320 with average stage length<1 hr, an aircraft is most reliable in the first 5 years of its life. For aircraft used on longer hauls like the 747-400 or the A340 the figure is typically taken to be ~8 years.

Aircraft older than this are of a scale less reliable and more prone to problems of varying degree which could lead to delays etc.

That is why airlines like 9W and SQ replace their aircraft at regular intervals and prefer younger fleets. Ofcourse it helps that passengers also prefer flying newer aircraft! 9W recently sold off its "old" 737-400's (~6 years old) and replaced them with newer -800's. They still have 2 of these "grannies" aka -400's left doing duty out of HYD.

FYI: AI used to do this as well at a time when it was led by more honest people. So the original lot of L749's were sold off within 5 years to be replaced by L1049's which themselves were sold off and replaced by 707's.

That ofcourse was a different time!
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Jaysit
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
For aircraft like the 737/A320 with average stage length<1 hr, an aircraft is most reliable in the first 5 years of its life. For aircraft used on longer hauls like the 747-400 or the A340 the figure is typically taken to be ~8 years.

Aircraft older than this are of a scale less reliable and more prone to problems of varying degree which could lead to delays etc.

That is why airlines like 9W and SQ replace their aircraft at regular intervals and prefer younger fleets. Ofcourse it helps that passengers also prefer flying newer aircraft! 9W recently sold off its "old" 737-400's (~6 years old) and replaced them with newer -800's. They still have 2 of these "grannies" aka -400's left doing duty out of HYD.

FYI: AI used to do this as well at a time when it was led by more honest people. So the original lot of L749's were sold off within 5 years to be replaced by L1049's which themselves were sold off and replaced by 707's.

That ofcourse was a different time!


What a joke.

Airbus A340s, Boeing 777s were designed for a lifespan of 20-25 years, and not 8 years as those with no or poor technical/science degrees attest. In fact, the structural lifespan of a 777 or 747 can be extended far longer than that, assuming adequate powerplant replacements.

Comparing the lifespan of a Connie with that third generation widebodied jets is laugheable to boot. The Connies were replaced because they became a liability for an airline like AI whose route structure was predominantly long haul, and which required larger 707s during an era of large scale immigration of Indians to the UK and to the US in the wake of expansive immigration reform in the latter.

But then we are of course dealing with an individual who calls a state of the art Boeing 777 a rustbucket. We're not exactly dealing with a full deck of cards here.

Incidentally, the reason SQ replace their aircraft as fast as they do has less to do with maintenance costs, and more to do with leasing and financial arrangements that the airline has historically been a proponent of.
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Karan69
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air India will get on wet lease one Airbus A310 -325 C/n 674
Reg OK-YAD ,wet-leased from 01mar07 in hybrid cs for one year.
Owned by Wilmington Trust Company, the aircraft was with Delta,
Air Jamica, Air Maldives,Khalifa and CSA Czech (as OK-YAD).

Well this time it seems confirmed.

Karan
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karatecatman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope it won;t turn out to be a tattered A310. Its operator profile would have really taken the life out of it.

With this, AI will still be the world's largest operator of the A310!!

Karan-ji
Thanks for your comments/remarks in earlier threads! Very Happy
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VABBy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaysit wrote:


Airbus A340s, Boeing 777s were designed for a lifespan of 20-25 years

Incidentally, the reason SQ replace their aircraft as fast as they do has less to do with maintenance costs, and more to do with leasing and financial arrangements that the airline has historically been a proponent of.


Jaysit so shall i imply that only leased aircrafts of SQ are the ones who are replaced ??? Just wondering out of the total fleet which SQ has hw many of the aircrafts are actually owned by the co and hw many are leased.
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selecta
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
For aircraft like the 737/A320 with average stage length<1 hr, an aircraft is most reliable in the first 5 years of its life. For aircraft used on longer hauls like the 747-400 or the A340 the figure is typically taken to be ~8 years.

Aircraft older than this are of a scale less reliable and more prone to problems of varying degree which could lead to delays etc.

That is why airlines like 9W and SQ replace their aircraft at regular intervals and prefer younger fleets. Ofcourse it helps that passengers also prefer flying newer aircraft! 9W recently sold off its "old" 737-400's (~6 years old) and replaced them with newer -800's. They still have 2 of these "grannies" aka -400's left doing duty out of HYD.

FYI: AI used to do this as well at a time when it was led by more honest people. So the original lot of L749's were sold off within 5 years to be replaced by L1049's which themselves were sold off and replaced by 707's.

That ofcourse was a different time!


OMG WTF LOL!!!

Way to make things up
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VABBy wrote:
Jaysit wrote:


Airbus A340s, Boeing 777s were designed for a lifespan of 20-25 years

Incidentally, the reason SQ replace their aircraft as fast as they do has less to do with maintenance costs, and more to do with leasing and financial arrangements that the airline has historically been a proponent of.


Jaysit so shall i imply that only leased aircrafts of SQ are the ones who are replaced ??? Just wondering out of the total fleet which SQ has hw many of the aircrafts are actually owned by the co and hw many are leased.

SQ replaces its fleets almost every 5 years
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mrniji
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_380 wrote:
VABBy wrote:

SQ replaces its fleets almost every 5 years


Interesting point! Here you have two main strategies

1) Either you "maintain aircraft extremely well and fly them over a long period", reducing acquisition costs
2) Or you get everything out of them over, as you use SQ as example, 5 yrs, and "dump" them --> of course, they will be maintained according to the standards, but it is a common misconceptioon to believe that the SQ744s leased by AI are in a very top condition Wink As Roy say, they could be Rustbuckets! Very Happy

Btw I love Rustbuckets, it's like flying 20 yrs ago, my dreams as a kid reappear.. flying was so much more fun then Wink
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neways: According to Jaysit here only the aircraft it leases are sent out? Yeah right! AI leased a couple of A310's SQ didnt want no more: were these leased or owned? Smile Our own Jet Airways recently sold off OWNED 737-400's and bought in brand new -700's and -800s in their place. So learn some facts before shooting off your mouth.

The Connies that AI operated were quite capable of operating the routes they were deployed on. Multi-stop milk-runs were quite the norm then. Heck AI even had a 747-200 do a madcap BOM-DEL-KWI-AMS-LHR route! So was range the basis for fleet replacement?

I would rather let the legendary JRD speak: he has clearly mentioned in his biography the reasons for the 5/8-year fleet renewal logic: a logic that Naresh Goyal has implemented to the Last Letter. Naresh Goyals own article in a Business magazine gave a fascinating insight of how a younger fleet helped give Jet that crucial advantage. Since they operated newer 737-300's their airline managed to operated with fewer snags, fewer delays and so on. Plus a 737-200 burnt more fuel and carried less passengers than the newer -300's and -400's on the same sector! All this resulted in the famed profitability of 9W. Even today they have the youngest jet fleet in the country and I think it shows in their reliability figures. You know Jaysit if you read JRD's biography instead of GQ (or whatever else it is that your people read) you would have a better insight into how things work!!

The fact remains that the airline business has proved that a younger fleet helps draw in premium passengers. Period! So airlines which aim to attract a premium crowd with yields to match, will work their financing arrangements (and fare structure as well) accordingly.

Dealing with a full pack of cards? Not quite!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With that logic AA & UAL should have no passengers at all!
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well what are the options: Most american carriers find better economics in runnin older planes. The American passenger doesnt have that choice. Tomorrow if an american carrier implements this politcy of fleet age less than 5/8 years for a small premium wouldnt people prefer them? Wouldnt you as a passenger prefer younger planes?

Asian carriers have led the world in this. And our own Jet Airways is right there as a success story in the young fleet policy. AI is thus going against the flow here. As a passenger would you rather fly a 2/3 year old 737 or a 15 year old 757?
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selecta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
Well what are the options: Most american carriers find better economics in runnin older planes. The American passenger doesnt have that choice. Tomorrow if an american carrier implements this politcy of fleet age less than 5/8 years for a small premium wouldnt people prefer them? Wouldnt you as a passenger prefer younger planes?

Asian carriers have led the world in this. And our own Jet Airways is right there as a success story in the young fleet policy. AI is thus going against the flow here. As a passenger would you rather fly a 2/3 year old 737 or a 15 year old 757?


Your trying to overly simplify the issue.

Your not taking economies of scale/alternatives/substitutes/frequent flyer programs into consideration.

The traveling public looks into all those different issues instead of going with the airline which has the youngest fleet.

I would argue most people who travel don't really care which airplane they fly on, as long as they can get there safely and economically.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
Neways: According to Jaysit here only the aircraft it leases are sent out? Yeah right! AI leased a couple of A310's SQ didnt want no more: were these leased or owned? Smile Our own Jet Airways recently sold off OWNED 737-400's and bought in brand new -700's and -800s in their place. So learn some facts before shooting off your mouth.

The Connies that AI operated were quite capable of operating the routes they were deployed on. Multi-stop milk-runs were quite the norm then. Heck AI even had a 747-200 do a madcap BOM-DEL-KWI-AMS-LHR route! So was range the basis for fleet replacement?

I would rather let the legendary JRD speak: he has clearly mentioned in his biography the reasons for the 5/8-year fleet renewal logic: a logic that Naresh Goyal has implemented to the Last Letter. Naresh Goyals own article in a Business magazine gave a fascinating insight of how a younger fleet helped give Jet that crucial advantage. Since they operated newer 737-300's their airline managed to operated with fewer snags, fewer delays and so on. Plus a 737-200 burnt more fuel and carried less passengers than the newer -300's and -400's on the same sector! All this resulted in the famed profitability of 9W. Even today they have the youngest jet fleet in the country and I think it shows in their reliability figures. You know Jaysit if you read JRD's biography instead of GQ (or whatever else it is that your people read) you would have a better insight into how things work!!

The fact remains that the airline business has proved that a younger fleet helps draw in premium passengers. Period! So airlines which aim to attract a premium crowd with yields to match, will work their financing arrangements (and fare structure as well) accordingly.

Dealing with a full pack of cards? Not quite!


Uh, why don't you learn the facts first you gay-obsessed homophobe, he who will ultimately depend on his Mummy to find some poor hapless girl kicking and screaming to forcibly marry him. And, btw, judging by the way you look and talk, I think that reading GQ would do you some good.

First of all, comparing the Connies life-span to the jets as you did is additional evidence of your technical ignorance. The L749s were replaced with L1049s because of capacity constraints, because they were hangar queens and because JRD managed an excellent replacement deal with Lockheed. When the L1049s were replaced in 5 years by the 707s, that replacement was dictated by the changing face of international air travel. You cannot compare the replacement of the Connies within 5-7 years with replacement of jets, without putting it all in context. In addition, your argument based on the Connie's range is rubbish, because range was not the issue - the face of international travel had changed with the arrival of the 707 and DC-8s - They flew at twice the speed, carried twice the number of people, and the Conway jet engines didn't need the levels of maintenance that piston engines needed. Flying a Connie in 1962 became a far more expensive proposition than flying a 707, especially given the increasing number of travellers from India in the 1960s that warranted the need for 707s.

And note to the simple-minded -- where did I say that SQ only got rid of leased aircraft? Nowhere. I said that SQ benefits from novel financial/leasing arrangements that enable it to rapidly replace its fleet.

Everyone knows that SQ and Jet fly young fleets for a number of reasons, maintenance costs, PR, image, and financial/leasing arrangements that permit rapid replacements. If you knew even the slightest thing about aircraft financing you'd know that an "owned" aircraft is still "owned" by the financial institutions that have lent the funds to the carrier that "owns" it. Its much like "owning" a mortgage. I could go into all the legal minutiae of aircraft leasing arrangements and distinguish the novel and flexible kinds that carriers like SQ have that actually permit rapid fleet replacements versus others, but I doubt if it would sink into your tiny little mind.
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selecta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaysit wrote:
COUGAR wrote:
Neways: According to Jaysit here only the aircraft it leases are sent out? Yeah right! AI leased a couple of A310's SQ didnt want no more: were these leased or owned? Smile Our own Jet Airways recently sold off OWNED 737-400's and bought in brand new -700's and -800s in their place. So learn some facts before shooting off your mouth.

The Connies that AI operated were quite capable of operating the routes they were deployed on. Multi-stop milk-runs were quite the norm then. Heck AI even had a 747-200 do a madcap BOM-DEL-KWI-AMS-LHR route! So was range the basis for fleet replacement?

I would rather let the legendary JRD speak: he has clearly mentioned in his biography the reasons for the 5/8-year fleet renewal logic: a logic that Naresh Goyal has implemented to the Last Letter. Naresh Goyals own article in a Business magazine gave a fascinating insight of how a younger fleet helped give Jet that crucial advantage. Since they operated newer 737-300's their airline managed to operated with fewer snags, fewer delays and so on. Plus a 737-200 burnt more fuel and carried less passengers than the newer -300's and -400's on the same sector! All this resulted in the famed profitability of 9W. Even today they have the youngest jet fleet in the country and I think it shows in their reliability figures. You know Jaysit if you read JRD's biography instead of GQ (or whatever else it is that your people read) you would have a better insight into how things work!!

The fact remains that the airline business has proved that a younger fleet helps draw in premium passengers. Period! So airlines which aim to attract a premium crowd with yields to match, will work their financing arrangements (and fare structure as well) accordingly.

Dealing with a full pack of cards? Not quite!


Uh, why don't you learn the facts first you gay-obsessed homophobe, he who will ultimately depend on his Mummy to find some poor hapless girl kicking and screaming to forcibly marry him. And, btw, judging by the way you look and talk, I think that reading GQ would do you some good.



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good grief! This Jaysit dufus clearly has issues with his *err* choices in life.

Jaysit: dont think you can abuse people and then not have people discuss your sexuality. It was you who started this whole abusive tirade and I have merely responded to it. Since you have made an alternate choice in lifestyle and choose to be public about it, you should be either tone down your "Power-Bottom" aggression and go easy with the abuse or get ready to get called on your sexcuality. You cant have it both ways. Oh wait! Your people DO like to have it BOTH ways! Very Happy Well life among normal folks is more complicated than "Now my turn...!" Very Happy

Which part of my last post dealt with *err* his lifestyle? But yet he goes on and on and on...! Common personality trait of *err* his people: think th ewhole world is out to get them! Smile Anyway let us leave this lawyer with a confused identity to figure out how things work while we get on with our discussion.

SQ and 9W clearly have their reasons for preferring a younger fleet and have worked financial and leasing deals in line with their policy of maintaining a younger fleet. Asian carriers have seen the benefit of a younger fleet. What is stopping AI from doing so? THAT is the question.
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