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malQ

There are media reports about an Air Deccan A-320 emergency door being opened by passengers and one report is here:-

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=215787

Now, all other aspects aside, specific question:- how does a scheduled airline in India switch off the lights and air-conditioning while passengers remain inside? Wouldn't that be a condition enough for DGCA to suspend the airline's licence?

Please appreciate, for the purpose of this thread, that I want to take a chronological and "law of the land" view of the developments and sequence of events. If pax protest by staging a sit-in once the aircraft is on the ground, with main doors open, then it becomes a matter between the authorities and the passengers. The airline or the PIC are no longer the law, nor are the airline staff.

So how does the airline even dare to switch off aircon and lights, and under which law of the land did they do so?

Air Deccan is obviously operated by instructions from a megalomaniac. I know senior journalists who have spoken to the man, and this sort of an attitude springs top down. Peaceful agitation is my democratic right in free India and I think somebody needs to explain that to Gopinath and Brady.

As well as once again bring to the fore the simple fact that the emergency row seats need to be alloted with due diligence and not by who can run to it first.

Shame on Air Deccan, in my opinion, for bringing matters to this pass. First they sell stuff at prices over MRP, then this. They are not a budget LCC. They are cheap. Cheap people, cheap airline.

Nimish · Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject:

This seems to be a classic example of the problems with poor communication. I'm sure if the message was conveyed in the right manner, all the passengers would have deplaned once the flight returned to BOM. And when the passengers refused to deplane, it was the right time to call in the police. But not to switch the aircon and lights off. Shame on DN for stooping to such levels.

the_380

karatecatman · Guest

Air Deccan cabin crew usually hide in the galleys when boarding starts.
Wait for things to settle down after the pushing and shoving. Then they come out for the safety demo ... and then disappear again.

This is what seems to have happened. Passengers would have been left to figure things out and almost pulled out every screw, button and handle.
Although the Express report is high on masala, can't believe it got to a stage of deploying the emergency slide! Must have been one really angry bunch. And the passenger who was arrested says he was only supporting the door!!
Does DN do any proper emergency briefing? After seeing the programme on NDTV recently on how "an airhostess job is the latest rage in rural India" and the scenes on board DN, am not too surprised pax have got wild.

On a serious note, DN is anyway thinking of outsourcing its cabin crew from Frankfinn. But DGCA is not amused.

DN is also thinking of modifying its logo of two outstretched hands. With their current bad image, it looks like a desperate (drowning) passenger waving his hands around and begging for help. This is the feedback from a PR agency, believe it or not.
Gopinath is now confused and wondering whether to boost the Common Man image (R.K. Laxman cartoon), as the main logo.

Aiel · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 927 Location: Bangalore

Low-cost airline Air Deccan filed a case against a passenger when he opened the emergency-exit door of the aircraft, reacting t the diversion of the Delhi-bound plane after over a day's delay due to fog.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/airline-sues-passenger-for-opening-door/30181-13.html
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the_380 · Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject:

karatecatman · Guest

NDTV just showed a programme at 9.30 pm hosted by Sreenivasan Jain. Was called air rage and says exactly what 380 said about Go air and DN incidents.

Ended by saying passengers can't expect airlines and airports to do magic and that passengers are generally becoming unruly.

ssbmat · Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710

Agreed DN is probably a flying version of a municipal transport bus, Laughing

but this also goes to say something about us Indians. We have gotten used to protest in a raucous manner, and return to our uncivilized roots.

They should thank the company policy for not risking a landing at a fog bound airport.
Maybe they would have been happier ending up in little pieces all over the runway.

Would these passengers dare a sit-in inside a British Airways or Lufthansa or even better, a Middle Eastern carrier ?
One stern look from a Gori-Memsahib would have these buffoons scurrying back to their seats.

Shame on the passengers for creating a scene like this.
Mad

Ssb

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

IMO its wrong to blame the pax sitting near the emergency exit. I doubt with the mob he would have had too much choice.

The fog isnt DN's prob either. I guess it all comes down to the high number of first time fliers on DN flights. They probably cant understand why the plane cant land in fog.

SSbmat this isnt likely to happen on a BA or LH flight out of India as an LH or BA out of India would have very few first timers.

Cheers
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malQ · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:55 am Post subject:

The single point issue here is - does the airline have the authority to endanger the lives of the passengers on board an aircraft as well as safety of the aircraft which is on the ground by switching off lights, air-conditioning and ventilation?

The answer is a clear no, and I shall be following up with BCAS as well as DGCA on this in the next few days, as well as keep this board informed.

Law and order once on the ground is not the airline's subject or competency, and that is what the issue is about. Nothing to do with domestic no-frills LCC, full-service or foreign.

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

malik are u going to use RTI again?
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VABBy · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL

I feel this incident is pointing fingers not only at the pax but also at the airline. If we sensibly look at this issue. This thing is a complete case of air rage. We have a rescheduled flight which comes back to the airport as the current weather conditions dont permit it to land.

While the cabin crew pleads passengers to disembark no one follows instructions. Instead decides to have a demonstration in the aircraft.

Offcourse DN worsened the situation by switching off the APU which i guess powers the light and the aircon. AS a result due to suffocation people not only tried to exit from the emergency doors but also frm the normal exits..

Yes we can say half of the chaos on the DN flights is becoz of the free seating concept. Bt then we cant deny this fact that we as indians are indisciplined people.

Recently when my cuz came back from MUC to DEL on the LH flight Near the aerobridge the annoucement for boarding row wise was announced to ease boarding. Bt unfortunately to the amusement of the german guy no one was listening and everyone ran towards the gate as if the plane would leave them. Ultimately he had to give up and he calmly replied that its free for all.

We can imagine if this can happen for an international flight how worst would be for Deccan which aims to be a carrier for the common man
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HAWK21M · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:01 am Post subject:

I guess the Airline fault is that no clear Instructions are provided.
The Fault of the Pax are that they need to Follow Instructions.If you are flying LCC,you need to agree to the terms else use other non LCC operators.

The Delay in conveying Info by the Airline is contributed by the Fluctuating METAR,every 30 minutes.Airline officials not sure if Visability will improve or the crew should avail FDTL.

What caused the Pax to no deplane when requested.Also switching the AC & Lights could lead to a serious Incident in anm Aircraft.

regds
MEL
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avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

Well first of all why do passengers get furious ? is there a fog in delhi for the first time? people going to and fro from Delhi should realize that there is
no point in quarreling with the airline staff there may be a million pax asking the same question again and again and belive me indians at such
situations are NEVER polite they have that bossy attitude and for first time fliers .... we dnt need to talk abt it

On the passengers side if it is necessary then only travel on late nights or early mornings to delhi unless its an emergency

on the airline side why dont they reschedule flights to later in the morning and for poular destinations like bom ccu blr keep one flt each in the morning .. so that would avoid too many arrear flights And for the airlines who cannot deal with such situations should not be allowed to operate within that time slot especially the LCC's

what one can do in this situation is probably purchase an IC or IT tickets as these airlines have CAT III trained pilots and can take off or land in poor visibilty and only these flights should be allowed to operate in the mornings

see the fog situation is mainly harrasing between DEC - JAN some changes within these months should be ok

malQ · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:48 am Post subject:

[quote="VABBy" This thing is a complete case of air rage. [/quote]

Vabby, with all respect, how does an incident on the ground qualify as "air rage"?

Air rage means incidents that occur when aircraft are with doors closed, under command of a PIC, who is also judge of the fact. Moment the aircraft is on the ground, doors open, then it is a simple law and order issue.

It is made clear to pilots of commercial aircraft that on the ground they are subject to laws of the land. As Hawk21 puts it, switching off lights and ventilation endangers the life and safety of people and I am personally going to use the RTI Act to get after the licence of the PIC who did so, or the subsequent staff who did so.

This is not air-rage. This is criminal conspiracy by airline and staff therein, in my humble opinion and an example needs to be made of Air Deccan.

JumboJet · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject:

VABBy · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL

Pardon my ignorance guys. Well i thought any incident particularly bad behaviour centric if showed by a pax on an aircraft whether in air or ground or in heaven ( In case the plane crashes) Wink

towards its operational crew wud qualify as air rage. Didnt knw the aircraft has to be specifically be in air.

Maybe we have a difference of opinion over this Bt still i feel that the pax are also at an equal fault as they didnt respond to the pleas of the operations crew who has asked them to disembark the aircraft.

Fine dharnas and satyagrah,s are all allowed bt then if the same thing prevents an official from discharging his or her duty then it becomes an unlawfull activity.

And by staging a dharna right on the aircraft and prevent ops from discharging their service they have done a blunder.

C,mon now dont tell me that first time fliers are small babies with no brains . This is a clear case of irrational behaviour shown by passengers.

Its not the airlines duty to keep them well informed that the probability of FOG in DELHI is high during early mornings and late evenings.

There is something know as awareness which each and every pax shud have..

As far as RTI is concerned best of luck to you.
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malQ · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject:

Vabby/JumboJet and others - as the four-striper in command, the safety of the lives under his/her custody/care/command is paramount. There is absolutely no leeway here.

Now let us say these lives decide to stage a sit-in, or refuse to disembark, or anything. They still remain - paramount - the lives for which I am responsible.

So now, on the ground, doors open and I have a situation where these lives under me do not disembark. I have the following options:-

a) Remain on board, and ensure their safety. Means, keep the ventilation and lights going, as well as safety drill procedures. Which means cabin crew stays on board too.

b) Hand over the charge, as per the law of the land, and disembark. Which means, inform and call the airport security as well as local police, as well as in the case of India, the BCAS.

But you do not abandon the aircraft with human lives on board. Regardless. Commercial exigencies do not ever prevail over human lives.

If as the reports suggest the PIC disembarked, then I would be very keen to note the status of the handing over of charge of the aircraft, scheduled commercial airliner in this case. Am I as a PIC entitled to hand over a law and order situation to a ground engineer/traffic staff or what? I guarantee you the next pilot would not take over. So, who did?

And if I handed over an aircraft to a ground engineer/traffic staff, then how does it become a case of "air rage"?

These are fine points, which I may not be articulating properly, but I am informed that the PIC of that DN flight needs to start worrying about the status of insurance on his/her licence very rapidly.

Indian aviation can not be laid hostage to passengers, sure. But it can not even more be laid hostage to pilots who have no idea of what their responsibilities are.

You have lives on board your plane, you stay on board with them and ensure their safety, regardless.

JumboJet · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject:

I think we all must salute MalQ for taking us to a new level of discussion and make us aware that we are above all HUMANS and procedures and policies are not there to scare us but to help us.
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HAWK21M · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject:

Heard the concerned person freed on bail.
regds
MEL
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JumboJet · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject:

HAWK21M · Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject:

Wheres the Commonality.
regds
MEL
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stealthpilot · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB

malQ · Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject:

The Commander makes an announcement, switches off all power, but makes sure that cabin crew are available to assist any passenger who may need help.

The Commander makes an announcement, switches off all power, and abandons the aircraft along with cabin crew, and there is nobody to assist any passenger who may need help.

I am mildly asthamatic, and have been in a situation where an S2 aircraft needed to switch off all power. Within a few minutes, whether due to nervousness or reality, I needed to stand near the door. The airline was kind enough to escort me to the tarmac. Incidentally, the next person to develop breathing problems was the Station Manager's spouse.

I have a lot of empathy and can understans what happens to people when struck with breathing problems. I would like to state that stealthpilot, with all respects, may please discuss this sort of a situation, with a friend who is asthamatic.

And while we are at it - the CISF security people I know estimate that between 15% and 25% of airline passengers seem to be carrying inhalers lately. I myself need a shot an hour or two into a flight, especially if the carpets are old or filters not maintained properly, though I can go for days without otherwise.

I agree opening the emergency door is a law and order issue. But look at the event rationally and chronologically, and then assign blame, why only to the last human in the chain?

the_380 · Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject:

VABBy · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL

All points taken champ Bt then the question is did the crew actually abandon the ship with pax still onboard. I am sure they did announce that power and aircon is being switched off.
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stealthpilot · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB