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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaah! Raja Awasthi! interesting character! And sooo unbiased!! Rolling Eyes

Most of Pee Pee's policy decisions have been directly to favor his cronies like VJM and NG rather than for indian aviation. We talk of a change in rules to liberalise the right of pvt airliens to fly abroad exactly at the time when KF's shiny new A330's are about to arrive! So Jet and Sahara slogged it out to earn the right to fly while KF gets it easy! An we are talking of liberalising the rules to allow for serving liquor etc and we know who benefits most from this!

Again, It was Pee Pee who pressurised Gopi to sell out to VJM using tactics like delaying the allotment of hangars and stuff like that. A much smaller airline liek KF had no problems getting their hangard! Very strange? or mebbe not!

We need a minister for civil aviation. Not a minister for Boeing and Kingfisher! Which is what Pee Pee has ended up as!
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Jaysit
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:


We need a minister for civil aviation. Not a minister for Boeing and Kingfisher! Which is what Pee Pee has ended up as!


I thought he was a Minister for Jet Airways and Boeing?

I guess Kingfisher is now the big baddie.

How quickly times change!!!

But, yes, India should go back to the days when it had a Minister for Civil Aviation - you know, like those paragons of airline travel for the masses, Shahnawaz Hussain and Sharad Yadav and all the other aviation geniuses who preceded them.

If only India had a Civil Aviation Minister whose sole objective was to ensure the existence of a fleet of IC A340-300s.
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
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Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
Most of Pee Pee's policy decisions have been directly to favor his cronies like VJM and NG rather than for indian aviation. We talk of a change in rules to liberalise the right of pvt airliens to fly abroad exactly at the time when KF's shiny new A330's are about to arrive! So Jet and Sahara slogged it out to earn the right to fly while KF gets it easy! An we are talking of liberalising the rules to allow for serving liquor etc and we know who benefits most from this!

Again, It was Pee Pee who pressurised Gopi to sell out to VJM using tactics like delaying the allotment of hangars and stuff like that. A much smaller airline liek KF had no problems getting their hangard! Very strange? or mebbe not!

We need a minister for civil aviation. Not a minister for Boeing and Kingfisher! Which is what Pee Pee has ended up as!


I'm confused, isn't PP the Minister for 9W anymore? And heavens, given he's now supposedly the minister for IT, why did he let AI/IC buy these huge fleets? And why did he sign the open-skies with the US and liberalize ASAs left right and center? Why is he letting other carriers into India and allowing a massive increase in capacity? Is he now trying to benefit India's passengers and the economy instead of just IT???? Something is fishy Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

And Cougar I guess you're happiest flying IC within India and outside, but please let others benefit from liberation from the mess that India was.
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More connections and all that: good. Better infrastructure: good. But how is all this being done? Is this is the best way to go about things? Are Pee Pee's friends the only ones who are capable of driving the aviation boom in the country?

There are airlines other than Kingfisher and there are airport developers other than GMR adn there are airplane manufacturers other than Boeing.

This isnt about IC. It is about how policy decisions are being formulated to benefit some players at the expense of all others. This is no way to develop and build a market. This isnt Capitalism, but Crony Capitalism.

His close relations with VJM, Reddy and Dinesh Keskar have influenced his decisions and policies and affected the market in a negative way. The market needs a level playing field and more competition to develop. This is how Telecom revolution happened in the country. When you tinker with the Level playing field and start favoring one player over another then the dynamics start going wonky.

The problem with you Nimish is that you are too short-sighted: you can only see IT's non-stops from BLR to SFO!! You are unable to see beyond that to how Pee Pee's criminal cronyism is affecting Civil Aviation pOlicy in our country.
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VABBy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excuse me whats wrong with GMR they tied up with FRAPORT and are now developing DEL airport so whats wrong with them and how does pp comes into picture in this as it was the EGOM who had the last draw....
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was the MoCA that had the final call on who to award contracts to.

ANd the tieup with FRAPORT is not the question here. All the bidders had tied up with a foreign partner. What is in question here is the bidding process and the way policy decisions are taken by this corrupt man.

Crony capitalism can have no justification.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
The problem with you Nimish is that you are too short-sighted: you can only see IT's non-stops from BLR to SFO!! You are unable to see beyond that to how Pee Pee's criminal cronyism is affecting Civil Aviation pOlicy in our country.


I'm quite happy the way I am thank you, and believe that short sightedness is probably better than being delusional and suffering from a strong persecution complex. I can wear glasses to cure short sightedness, not sure what one can do for delusions and complexes Wink Very Happy
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps if you wore glasses you would be able to see the other side of the story and not label people as "delusional" etc etc. Strong words which should be used carefully. The fact that you use them so loosely says a lot! Smile

I understand you are Pee Pee fan, but facts are facts!
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kettle:
COUGAR wrote:
Perhaps if you wore glasses you would be able to see the other side of the story and not label people as "delusional" etc etc. Strong words which should be used carefully.


Pot:
COUGAR wrote:
The problem with you Nimish is that you are too short-sighted


Pot.. kettle.. Black...

What? Don't tell me that when you call everyone names (and there's a long list of names you've called people - starting with me just now and Thulasidas and PP and numerous others) that's OK, but when you're called "delusional" and "have a persecution complex", that's a "Strong word which should be used carefully"?

Reminds me of the saying "Those in glass houses should not throw stones at others"
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish: The difference is that i call Pee Pee names and back it up with a reason for calling him that.

You on the other hand are making a direct (and unprovoked) attack on a fellow member. I would think that a moderator would show some more responsibility. Caesars wife should be above suspicion you know! Wink That clearly hasnt been the case here. I understand you are Pee Pee's fan but you must learn to face hard questions without getting your shorts in a twist.

It is important that all members should exercise restraint when responding to posts made by fellow members.

As for people not on this board: it can be open season!! Let Pee Pee join this board and I will exercise restraint in my language against him. No I wont stop questioning him! But there would be restraint that is in place towards members. Hope that clarifies.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
It is important that all members should exercise restraint when responding to posts made by fellow members.
...
But there would be restraint that is in place towards members. Hope that clarifies.


Thanks for the clarification. The moment you withdraw the "short sighted" comment, I will consider you really mean what you've said here, and am happy to withdraw the "delusional" comments.

Besides - please remember to exercise similar constraint with everyone - not just members on this board. That is the minimum level of decency we would expect. Feel free to bring up evidence on all the anti AI/MoCA points you'd like - that's more than welcome. But leave out some of the juicier adjectives.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
Nimish: The difference is that i call Pee Pee names and back it up with a reason for calling him that.

You on the other hand are making a direct (and unprovoked) attack on a fellow member. I would think that a moderator would show some more responsibility. Caesars wife should be above suspicion you know! Wink


BTW, I was not making an "unprovoked" attack - I was called short sighted first. And I called you what I did because I have a reason for it.

Neither have you provided proof, neither have I, so one can argue that both reasons are equally meaningless, but that's besides the point now I guess?

As a moderator I have a couple of options:

1. Warn/Ban the member in question. But that's already been done and has not helped too much (though it has brought down the personal attacks - thanks for that).
2. Ignore and pretend the problem does not exist. This is what I don't want to do - either take action (warn/ban) or engage.
3. Point out the rules of the forum prevent mud slinging and that opinions must be stated as such, and not as facts. Once again that's been done and not had any effect
4. Repeat the ban for repeat violations -> this is what I've tried to avoid by getting into this debate with you.
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:

BTW, I was not making an "unprovoked" attack - I was called short sighted first. And I called you what I did because I have a reason for it.

Neither have you provided proof, neither have I, so one can argue that both reasons are equally meaningless, but that's besides the point now I guess?


There is a big difference between short-sighted and delusional. BIG DIFFERENCE! If you cant understand this difference, then you shouldnt be a moderator!

Do members here provide "proof" or what passes for it for every thing we discuss here? Then wehy should we make an exception for discussions on Pee Pee? I have heard coarse remarks on various poilticians being passed around with no connection to the discussion at hand. Somehow I dont see you get proactive on that!

However any comment against Pee Pee seems to upset you in particular more than any other moderator. I understand you are his fan but that doesnt change facts.


I am entitled to my opinion about pee pee and I have the full right to state that in terms i choose. I havent been abusive (unless you are going to now interpert that calling Pee Pee corrupt is being abusive).

As for evidence: show me evidence for a lot of the stuff we discuss here (including posts you have made) and compare that with the evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) i have put up.

There was one case where I put up evidence to prove that Pee Pee and Dinesh Keskar are family friends, but that post was deleted becoz the moderator (you?) felt that "shouldnt get personal".

So any piece of evidence that is presented against your favorite Pee Pee wont be considered appropriate for this forum? Is that it?

Whats the point of havin a forum like this if we are not allowed to speak openly about our corrupt ministers just because one moderator happens to be a fan of the said minister?

I put this question to all the other members? Do we not have the right to criticize a corrupt minister? What will constitute as evidence and what does not? Do we present evidence for all that we discuss out here? So why should it be different for discussing a minister?
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:

There is a big difference between short-sighted and delusional. BIG DIFFERENCE!


Thanks for pointing that out. But I already knew that.

COUGAR wrote:
However any comment against Pee Pee seems to upset you in particular more than any other moderator. I understand you are his fan but that doesnt change facts.

I guess you're questioning the other mods on why they're not doing their jobs. It doesn't take away from the fact that I need to do mine.

COUGAR wrote:
I am entitled to my opinion about pee pee

Correct - agree 100%

COUGAR wrote:
and I have the full right to state that in terms i choose.


Not on this forum, thank you. You have the full right to state an opinion, but not in the terms and language that you choose. There are n number of rules of this forum, and you need to stick to those.

COUGAR wrote:
So any piece of evidence that is presented against your favorite Pee Pee wont be considered appropriate for this forum? Is that it?


If there is any evidence, please bring it up and I encourage you to take it to the police/ PIL/ RTI/ courts as well. That's much better use of the information you might have. It's not doing any good with it neither being presented on this forum, nor with the authorities.

As far as a mod having deleted a thread in the past, I don't recall what you're talking about and don't recall if I was the one that deleted it.

COUGAR wrote:
Whats the point of havin a forum like this if we are not allowed to speak openly about our corrupt ministers just because one moderator happens to be a fan of the said minister?

Please find another forum to discuss corrupt ministers and spend all your energies on that forum throwing unsubstantiated allegations. On this forum, the mods don't want unsubstantiated rumours being thrown as facts. If that's all you want to do, please do find another forum.

Guys - as this thread has been derailed enough - I'm moving it over to the site related forum.
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please find another forum to discuss corrupt ministers and spend all your energies on that forum throwing unsubstantiated allegations. On this forum, the mods don't want unsubstantiated rumours being thrown as facts. If that's all you want to do, please do find another forum.

This forum has discussed Mayawati, Sonia Gandhi etc etc when some members think that they want to play funnyman. And you say we cant discuss the negative qualities of the Civil Aviation Minister? Or we cant question his actions as Civil Aviation Minister? Why? Because one of the mods happens to be his fan?

Discussing the actions and the rights and wrongs of the Civil Aviation Minister is certainly within the limits of the forum.

Nobody, NOBODY has used abusive language. If calling someone corrupt is abusive then every newspaper in india starting with the Indian Express can be accused of profanity.

And what constitutes proof? Isnt what you read in the Express also somebodys opinion?

Talking about unsubstantiated rumors: Pardon me Mr.Nimish: isnt that what all of us do here 99.99% of the time? Discussing what could be and what will be? So what you are now saying is all that is ok, but lets not discuss these things about my God: mr.Prafull Patel?

Sorry! but i disagree!

Praful Patel is a political personality (an unelected one at that) who directly controls the Civil aviation policy in the country. Discussing the rights and wrongs of his actions is quite acceptable on this forum. As a moderator, you can step in when posts get abusive. But summarily deleting posts on the grounds that "there is no evidence" is simply not done and quite simply an abuse of the moderator rights!! You have no authority to jurisdicate on the accuracy of the posts or the information contained within. Your responsibility is to ensure that the discipline and decorum is maintained.

Is anyone using 4 letter words? are threads getting too long-winded and going around in circles? then yes lock threads, or delete the offending posts!!

But anything beyond that: is a plain abuse of the moderators rights. Hope that clarifies!!

PS: Responding to other members posts is one thing. But using words like "DELUSIONAL" as a response to "SHORTSIGHTED" is certainly not a very responsible thing to do. Moderators have authority but also a responsibility that goes with it: to stay clear of controversies and piss-fights with members. Authority and Responsibility go hand in hand. its time you understood that!
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COUGAR wrote:
Nobody, NOBODY has used abusive language. If calling someone corrupt is abusive then every newspaper in india starting with the Indian Express can be accused of profanity.


IMO you've consistently been abusive on this forum. Whether it's against Thulasi or the folks who run AI or the MoCA or PP or anything other than IC really. Tell me - is "Bidi smuggler" or any of the other adjectives you've used not abusive?

COUGAR wrote:
You have no authority to jurisdicate on the accuracy of the posts or the information contained within. Your responsibility is to ensure that the discipline and decorum is maintained.

Is anyone using 4 letter words? are threads getting too long-winded and going around in circles? then yes lock threads, or delete the offending posts!!

But anything beyond that: is a plain abuse of the moderators rights. Hope that clarifies!!


That's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

COUGAR wrote:
PS: Responding to other members posts is one thing. But using words like "DELUSIONAL" as a response to "SHORTSIGHTED" is certainly not a very responsible thing to do. Moderators have authority but also a responsibility that goes with it: to stay clear of controversies and piss-fights with members. Authority and Responsibility go hand in hand. its time you understood that!

Looks like I've touched a raw nerve here Very Happy
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimish wrote:

IMO you've consistently been abusive on this forum. Whether it's against Thulasi or the folks who run AI or the MoCA or PP or anything other than IC really. Tell me - is "Bidi smuggler" or any of the other adjectives you've used not abusive?


So basically we cannot call anyone foolish or corrupt anymore? Even if their actions justify that adjective?

I think we are all educated people here and understand what constitutes for abusive language. And we all steer clear of them.

"Beedi smuggler" is hardly an abuse since it is very much a profession followed by many people.

Nimish wrote:

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

The moderators role is not my opinion but an agreed and understood definition clearly specified on the main page. It seems from your comment that you have not understood it completely!


Nimish wrote:

Looks like I've touched a raw nerve here Very Happy

yes. Because we all expect a moderator to be a little more responsible with the choice of words. How can you keep the law when you are yourself breaking it?

I understand that you are a fan of a minister, but that doesnt give you the right to prevent other members from speaking their mind about him. Nobody has been abusive throughout this debate so no rules have been broken. What you are trying to do is control the debate and prevent any discussion on a minister you seem to worship.
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Aseem
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am closing this thread as the discussion is hardly meaningful. Please feel free to start another thread.
rgds
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