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Alitalia to Delhi

 
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varunsud7
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Joined: 18 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Alitalia to Delhi Reply with quote

Hello Everyone !

I am planning a trip to Italy in November first week. I read that Alitalia is starting non stop flights rome delhi from 29 Oct 2017. Its website is booking these flights. Also, makemytrip, cleartrip etc. are booking this alitalia flight.

But my travel agent says they havnt recieved any confirmation as the approval is still pending from DGCA.

Anyone can please confirm weather they are actually starting or not ?

Thanks and Regards
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sumantra
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Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 4485
Location: New Delhi

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Alitalia to Delhi Reply with quote

varunsud7 wrote:
I am planning a trip to Italy in November first week. I read that Alitalia is starting non stop flights rome delhi from 29 Oct 2017. Its website is booking these flights. Also, makemytrip, cleartrip etc. are booking this alitalia flight.
But my travel agent says they havnt recieved any confirmation as the approval is still pending from DGCA.

Doesn't look like it. The Alitalia website does not show it, neither does makemytrip for that matter. I guess they haven't loaded it on the GDS till the DGCA permission comes in. Right now, Air India has the only direct flight between DEL and FCO, a flight that has a good rating. All others are one-stops, and some could be cheaper. Is AI not an option?
Cheers, Sumantra.
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justbala
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 1767
Location: Bangalore

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Alitalia to Delhi Reply with quote

sumantra wrote:
varunsud7 wrote:
I am planning a trip to Italy in November first week. I read that Alitalia is starting non stop flights rome delhi from 29 Oct 2017. Its website is booking these flights. Also, makemytrip, cleartrip etc. are booking this alitalia flight.
But my travel agent says they havnt recieved any confirmation as the approval is still pending from DGCA.

Doesn't look like it. The Alitalia website does not show it, neither does makemytrip for that matter. I guess they haven't loaded it on the GDS till the DGCA permission comes in. Right now, Air India has the only direct flight between DEL and FCO, a flight that has a good rating. All others are one-stops, and some could be cheaper. Is AI not an option?
Cheers, Sumantra.


Cleartrip shows this flight

Alitalia
AZ-770
FCO 14:40
Fiumicino, Rome, Terminal 1
02:30 DEL
Indira Gandhi Airport, New Delhi, Terminal 3
7h 20m

It is priced 30% more expensive than AI on most days

Even AZ website shows the flight. You need to select a flightdate after Oct 29
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sumantra
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Location: New Delhi

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Alitalia to Delhi Reply with quote

justbala wrote:
Even AZ website shows the flight. You need to select a flightdate after Oct 29
Thanks, Balagopal: yes, I see it on quite a few sites, now.
Cheers, Sumantra.
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Jaysit
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there enough traffic to support this flight? Or is Alitalia just throwing darts at a board hoping that something sticks?
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Caliguy
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Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 564
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On its own I don't think there is enough traffic although Italy has one of the bugger EU Indian populations. My guess is AZ is jumping on the "use India to fill your transatlantic planes" bandwagon like AF/KL did. Guess it keeps their transatlantic flights going during the off peak fall/winter period. My guess not based facts.
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sumantra
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Location: New Delhi

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaysit wrote:
Is there enough traffic to support this flight? Or is Alitalia just throwing darts at a board hoping that something sticks?
Alitalia isn't among the best-managed airlines around, and if one considered their competitor's coffers...All said and done, there has been some decent biz traffic on the route from what I hear (plus the tourism angle), and the B788 Dream)liner is perhaps best suited for the route's economics (more so, AI's configuration). AI's homework was quite good, for the route: from what I hear. The balancing act between a daily flight and a non-daily one (more fixed costs: staff, hotel, transport which amortise better with daily flights) is a tight one, and is expected to bleed an airline during its initial years. AI is not doing too badly with the loads (pax and cargo), and their tickets are priced quite competitively. It was good route planning to stretch routes on the Dream)liners in the Nandan and Lohani eras, while the barrel costs stay down. I'm not sure if there is a market for a competitor right now, and AZ with their unimpressive track record, and being second-best with the plane type involved, perhaps do not stand much of a chance, here.
Cheers, Sumantra.
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justbala
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Posts: 1767
Location: Bangalore

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Etihad Partner Airline - 9W FFP can get full benefits on this flight and I guess 9W will add its codeshare on this flight (as they do with on FCO-AUH flight)
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azul
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Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaysit wrote:
Is there enough traffic to support this flight? Or is Alitalia just throwing darts at a board hoping that something sticks?


Given how leak-prone and hyper-competitive the Indian market is, you almost don't need to ask this question. The geography is so challenging, with so many airports in between you and your destination capable of intercepting you, that the market has to be large enough to withstand the leaks.

That said, Alitalia is kind of a special case, struggling to survive, and it's hard to say what their motivation is in doing this now. A few years ago they launched destinations like Mexico DF and Santiago de Chile, both of which are smaller O&D markets (esp FCO-SCL) than Rome-Delhi and with much longer stage lengths (esp FCO-SCL).

Lufthansa among others like Easyjet has made an offer to take over Alitalia. If I had to guess, I think LH will successfully reconstitute Alitalia just as they did with Swiss and Brussels Airlines.

Now back to the FCO-DEL market (sorry for the sidetrack):

Routesonline has a nifty new feature called Route Rundown, where they share market size on new routes using MIDT data from Sabre. In case you were wondering, MIDT data is apparently the airline industry standard.

Scroll down here:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/274331/route-rundown-archive/

83,483 = O&D traffic demand in 2016

I suppose that the relative lack of fights all these years is because any airline that could serve the route has had financial problems. But the larger issue is probably that yields aren't that great. There is surely some government and related business traffic, but corporate traffic is likely weak overall.


Last edited by azul on Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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azul
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caliguy wrote:
On its own I don't think there is enough traffic although Italy has one of the bugger EU Indian populations. My guess is AZ is jumping on the "use India to fill your transatlantic planes" bandwagon like AF/KL did. Guess it keeps their transatlantic flights going during the off peak fall/winter period. My guess not based facts.


Well definitely not based on facts. Alitalia has had transatlantic flights during the winter for a long time. I doubt that those flights are only now so empty that they suddenly now need people to fill those seats.

As shown above the local FCO-DEL market is actually pretty large but leaky, so they would need their own beyond connections: domestic Italy, Europe, around the Mediterranean, across the Atlantic, whatever they can get.

Milan-Delhi is actually a much larger local market, I think close to double the size of FCO-DEL. Also, VCE-DEL is now the fourth largest unserved European market from Delhi, behind BCN, BRU, and MAN. Clearly Italy-India is actually quite a large aviation market, though most of the trade and business traffic goes to Lombardy, Veneto, and perhaps also the Piedmont region, all in Northern Italy.

Rome is more of tourist market, with high seasonality, as can be seen from TATL schedules that swell during the summer. Besides the ethnic traffic you mention, I'd expect that outbound Indian leisure travellers are an increasingly large factor.
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Caliguy
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Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

azul wrote:
Caliguy wrote:
On its own I don't think there is enough traffic although Italy has one of the bugger EU Indian populations. My guess is AZ is jumping on the "use India to fill your transatlantic planes" bandwagon like AF/KL did. Guess it keeps their transatlantic flights going during the off peak fall/winter period. My guess not based facts.


Well definitely not based on facts. Alitalia has had transatlantic flights during the winter for a long time. I doubt that those flights are only now so empty that they suddenly now need people to fill those seats.

As shown above the local FCO-DEL market is actually pretty large but leaky, so they would need their own beyond connections: domestic Italy, Europe, around the Mediterranean, across the Atlantic, whatever they can get.

Milan-Delhi is actually a much larger local market, I think close to double the size of FCO-DEL. Also, VCE-DEL is now the fourth largest unserved European market from Delhi, behind BCN, BRU, and MAN. Clearly Italy-India is actually quite a large aviation market, though most of the trade and business traffic goes to Lombardy, Veneto, and perhaps also the Piedmont region, all in Northern Italy.

Rome is more of tourist market, with high seasonality, as can be seen from TATL schedules that swell during the summer. Besides the ethnic traffic you mention, I'd expect that outbound Indian leisure travellers are an increasingly large factor.


Well facts from other discussions about transatlantic flights - many US/EU airlines are struggling in the low season because of Norwegian and the Icelandic + other LCCs. This has really affected the "cheap seats". Plus Brussel air starting BOM + DL/KL/AF partnership with Jet all point to the need for EU carriers to fill the back of their planes with the main change being transatlantic LCCs. Remember fares US-India are some of the lowest we have seen in years (even sub $800 fares NYC-BOM). But I grant you I do not know 100% fact on why AZ added DEL. I am just trying to connect the dots. Btw the fact that there is at least decent O&D helps AZ on the route.
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azul
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caliguy wrote:
Well facts from other discussions about transatlantic flights - many US/EU airlines are struggling in the low season because of Norwegian and the Icelandic + other LCCs. This has really affected the "cheap seats". Plus Brussel air starting BOM + DL/KL/AF partnership with Jet all point to the need for EU carriers to fill the back of their planes with the main change being transatlantic LCCs. Remember fares US-India are some of the lowest we have seen in years (even sub $800 fares NYC-BOM). But I grant you I do not know 100% fact on why AZ added DEL. I am just trying to connect the dots. Btw the fact that there is at least decent O&D helps AZ on the route.


There is not a single fact anywhere to suggest anything like this, and the "discussions" you cite are just you and only you spewing out the same story time and again here and on other forums.

The major US and Western European carriers are all publicly traded companies, and you can listen to their conference calls, read analyst coverage, and follow the aviation media to try and investigate further to see if they are struggling with empty seats in the low season.

It's true that traffic to/from Europe drops during the winter, but the three major alliances all reduce capacity to match the demand. In any case, even on a dreary January day US-Europe traffic at large is far higher than to any other region. That's because of the extensive trade and business and other relationships that extend throughout the year.

All three alliances have large beyond Europe networks, to Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Those connections have played a role in the success of the 3 alliances for many, many years now. The rise of Norwegian, WOW Air, etc. expands the US+Canada to Europe market to new categories of travellers, but the LCCs also reduce capacity during the winter to match demand.

One actual fact you state is that US-India fares have dropped quite a bit, across cabins, over the years. I think USDOT or other official data would support that statement. But, that is precisely why this market is significantly less interesting than it used to be 15 or 25 years ago for most airlines. Fortunately, in the context of the incredibly broad networks of the three global alliances there is nothing earth-shattering or super-special about India.

The basic problem I thinik is that you see every route addition to India in the context of your style of travel from the United States for the VFR Superstar set, when that's not nearly as important as you imagine it to be.
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azul
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Jaysit

One thing I should have mentioned is that really it's not so much market size but often fares, given the distance being travelled, that can determine whether a route will work. If fares are low compared with other route opportunities, and yes they can be comparatively low in any cabin, then it's hard to justify the nonstop.

If you look through the Route Rundown link you'll see that IAH-SYD which United will launch has a local market of 13,xxx which is pretty small. However fares on US-Australia tend to be pretty high in general, UA can stimulate the market, and moreover the important customers like oil and gas, mineral extraction companies, etc. have copious amounts of money to spend on those Polaris seats.

Another example even more surprising is Avianca looking into joining Lufthansa on the Colombia-Germany sector. As you can see the market is like really small:

https://blueswandaily.com/frankfurt-and-munich-compete-for-new-avianca-link-from-colombia/

I suppose with the Atlantic Ocean there are not too many indirect competitors on the horizon so it's doable.
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