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MMRA: Rafale wins India's biggest fighter deal for $10.4bn

 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: MMRA: Rafale wins India's biggest fighter deal for $10.4bn Reply with quote

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Dassault-Rafale-wins-MMRCA-deal-beating-Eurofighter-Typhoon/articleshow/11700801.cms

Rafale wins India's biggest fighter deal for $10.4bn

Jan 31, 2012

French company Dassault Rafale today bagged India's biggest-ever contract for supplying 126 combat aircraft for the air force, edging out European competitor EADS in the multi-billion dollar deal.

The French firm was declared as the lowest bidder, according to which it will get the contract under India's defence procurement procedure, sources said.

"The French firm Dassault Rafale has emerged as the L-1 (lowest bidder) and cheaper than its european rival EADS (maker of Eurofighter) in the tender and will be offered to supply the aircraft to the IAF," the source said.

They said the representatives of Dassault here were informed about the development in the morning and further negotiations on price will be held with them in the next 10-15 days.

The contract will be signed only in the next fiscal. According to the Request for Proposal (RFP), the winner of the contract will have to supply 18 of the 126 aircraft to the IAF in 36 months from its facilities and the remaining would be produced at HAL facilities in Bangalore.

Six companies including American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Saab Gripen alongwith Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale were in the race in the beginning.

But in April last year, the defence ministry shortlisted Dassault and EADS, evicting the American, Russian and Swedish bids.

The process was started with the issuing of a global tender in 2007 after which all the six contenders were subjected to extensive field evaluation trails by the Indian Air Force at several locations across the globe.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

great! we already had tremendous confidence in Mirages... in fact Mirage 2000 was part of initial offering, and French themselves put it out and replaced with Rafale. Also, I was somehow not confident with Eurofighter as it meant dependence on a bunch of countries for spares and support.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pasting a comment by some Abhijeet Banerjee in respose to the article.... clarifies quite a few things for a novice.

Quote:
"Before coming to a conclusion, you need to understand role of a fighter aircraft. “Fighter” is a generic term. There are mainly three types of fighters; Interceptors, ground attack and air superiority. Mig-21 is one example of an Interceptor. They need to be fast and able to chase attacking enemy. India has a plan to replace this category with our own LCA. MIG-23 / 27 and Jaguar are example of Ground Attack. They are mainly used for attacking ground targets with their better low flying and targeting abilities. This is the segment which is addressed by procurement of these Rafales as our MIG-27 and Jaguar are ageing. And then there are fighters which are for dominating the air space over enemy territory and keep the enemy fighters out. Here comes our SU-30 MKI; air superiority fighter. Typhoon has better air superiority capabilities than Rafel, no doubts. But when we have more heavy, better maneuverable, better range and capable Su-20 MKI compared to Typhoon, do we require another air superiority fighter? On the other hand, Rafale has better ground attack capability compared to Typhoon as demonstrated during Libyan war. And there are fighters having capabilities of an interceptor, ground attack and air superiority called Multi Role fighters like Mirage-2000. Rafel is also one. This defense tender tool nearly 5 years, very well managed, transparent and finally delivered an aircraft what India really needs…. "

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There also a mention in A.NET Military section discussion, that Rafale has better structural capability to pull off higher Gs without stressing the airframe. Apparently, the Rafale airframe was tested to 1.8 times the normal limit in the ultimate load test. The Typhoon failed at 1.4..

Rafale is designed to be aircraft carrier compliant at the outset, thats why its probably stronger..
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The IAF have chosen the "Fighter" version best suited to their needs & considering the Existing hardware available with the IAF currently.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to the technical parameters, the per unit cost of Rafale is also lower than the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Rafale ~ USD 84.48 million/unit

Typhoon ~ USD 108 million/unit

There are also bound to be some similarities between the IAF Mirages (especially after their upgrade) and the Rafale as both have been manufactured by Dassault.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/French-jet-Rafale-bags-20bn-IAF-fighter-order-India-briefs-losing-European-countries/articleshow/11706551.cms

Under the MMRCA project, the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition" from France from mid-2015 onwards, while the rest 108 fighters will later be manufactured in India over six years after a transfer of technology (ToT) to Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am hunting for interesting reader comments... here is one from some Indian in TOI

Quote:
VERY VERY GOOD DECISION BY INDIAN AIRFORCE I TELL YOU HOW ----- 1) EUROFIGHTER IS MADE BY 4 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES TOGETHER WHICH ARE PRO USA THEREFORE IT WAS EASY FOR USA TO INTERFERE IN FULL TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY TO INDIA.. AS USA CAN'T SEE INDIA'S INCRESING CLOUT IN THE WORLD......... USA COULD HAVE PREVENTED TRANSFER OF SOFTWARE AND SOURCE CODES OF AESA RADAR MAKING INDIA DEPENDENT ON FOREIGN COUNTRY FOR ANY MISSION BECAUSE EACH MISSION REQUIRES DIFFERENT SETS OF PARAMETERS FOR RADARS....WHICH CAN ONLY BE ALTERED IF YOU KNOW SOURCE CODES............. 2) FRENCH GOVERNMENT HAS PROMISED FULL TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY 100% INCLUDING SOFTWARES, SOURCE CODES, FULL HARDWARE CODES AND FULL DESIGNS.... MAKING INDIA INDEPENDENT TO PRODUCE AIRCRAFT ON ITS OWN WITH ITS OWN PARAMETERS.... WE WILL NOT NEED ANYBODIES PERMISSION IN THAT...... AS USA WANTED ......... 3) RAFALE IS MUCH SIMILAR TO MIRAGE 2000 THEREFORE INDIA DONOT NEED NEW MECHANICS, INFRASTRUCTURE, PARTS FOR THIS... EVEN PILOTS WILL FIND EASY O OPERATE RAFALE AS THEN NEED NO EXTRA TRAINING AS THEY ALREADY OPERATE MIRAGE SO DECRESING SO MUCH OF COST ATLEST HALF OF THAT........... 4) RAFALE IS PURELY MADE IN FRANCE AND DONOT COMES UNDER DIFFERENT INTERNATIONAL TRETIES WHICH PREVENTS FLOW OF HITECH TECHNOLOGY... THEREFORE INDIA WILL GET FULL TECHNOLOGY... 5) THIS DEAL WILL LOWER THE STATUS AND IMAGES OF USA AND UK DEFENSE SECTOR AND WILL GIVE NICE TIGHT BEATING TO THEM WHICH WILL FURTHER INCREASE INDIA'S IMPORTANCE AND CLOUT IN THE WORLD..... 6) UK WAS THINKING OF FUNDING EUROFIGHTER PROGRAMME FROM INDIA'S MONEY BECOZ UK CURRENTLY HAS NO NEW FIGHTER AND IS PRONE TO ATTACK BY ANY COUNTRY... ITS AIRFORCE FLEET HAS NO NEW FIGHTER UK IS TOTALLY EPENDENT ON USA'S F35 FIGHTER JET PROGRAMME WHICH IS ALSO GOING FROM HURDELS AND COST OVERRUNS... AND FINALLY THIS IS ANSWER TO DOW CHEMICALS SPONSERSHIP TO LONDON OLYMPICS WHICH KILLED SO MANY INNOV=CENTS IN BHOPAL GAS TRAGEDY......

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overstretching this argument to DOW and Olympics I think..
Surely the IAF has other more strategic reasons ?

I think the native Navy carrier capabilities are very important.
Technology transfer is also a point-
Perhaps Rafale is also a better stable platform for delivery of missiles and tactical nuclear weapons.

Finally, its interesting how the economic fortunes of the so-called First World countries are now hingeing on the commercial and strategic considerations of a so-called Third World country..cliched..but enjoyable. Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok here are my views.

Rafale was selected after an elaborate testing and validating process that took almost 18 months for all the six aircraft and emerged top along with eurofighter. Rafale has had a better development cycle compared to Typhoons and recently in Libya, Typhoons did have a problem in Air to Ground missions. Typhoons also does not have a fully developed AESA radar. Thales is offering the same for Rafale.

Now the after sales service. IAF is not that happy with BAe as it is with Dassault for their after sales service. Plus there is a little commonality between Rafale and Mirages, although not that much.

I think these reasons would have been taken into account too while deciding the L1 and L2. Let us see how the negotiations proceed from now on.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: given Reply with quote

The Brits seem to be pissed off. They accuse India of ingratitude, arguing that India gets millions of pounds in aid from the UK.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2851489.ece

Quote:
The BAE Systems whose bid was turned down was still in the hunt for the contract despite losing the first round of bidding, British Prime Minister David Cameron suggested.

Prime Minister David Cameron on Wednesday led an attack on India for selecting French firm Dassault Rafale for a mega deal to supply fighter jets ignoring British claims as MPs and the media accused New Delhi of “ingratitude,” arguing that Britain gave millions of pounds in aid to India.


Do these jokers really think that they can arm twist India in this age?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: given Reply with quote

himmat01 wrote:
The Brits seem to be pissed off. They accuse India of ingratitude, arguing that India gets millions of pounds in aid from the UK.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2851489.ece

Quote:
The BAE Systems whose bid was turned down was still in the hunt for the contract despite losing the first round of bidding, British Prime Minister David Cameron suggested.

Prime Minister David Cameron on Wednesday led an attack on India for selecting French firm Dassault Rafale for a mega deal to supply fighter jets ignoring British claims as MPs and the media accused New Delhi of “ingratitude,” arguing that Britain gave millions of pounds in aid to India.


Do these jokers really think that they can arm twist India in this age?


With statements like these, Britain seems to be shooting itself in the foot. There's nothing preventing them from reducing their prices (given that the decision was based on the lowest price), instead of talking about aid that is given.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The brits comments are so funny...I think we are able to sustain ourselves without asking Britain of all countries for loans. Most loans come from IMF or the ADB or countries like Japan.

The Brit statements are for pacifying its population. Period
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If India was serious about its air defence capibilities, they should have gone for the tried and tested F16 / F18 combination.

Although the cost would have been high, it would set out India's statement to the world and the Paks that we are deadly serious.

It could have led to more American hardware winging its way over to the Indian armed forces.

America is the only country that still has a huge defence budget to develop new and modern technologies for defence purposes.

By going for the cheapest option, India has stuck itself with a country in Europe that is going through an economic rough patch and is hardly a serious player in the defence industry.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d3vski wrote:
If India was serious about its air defence capibilities, they should have gone for the tried and tested F16 / F18 combination.


The 2 F's are at the end of their life cycle development. They will not offer any more modifications that India needs. This is one of the main reasons why these 2 were eliminated. F-16 was also eliminated because of it being a single engine, single seater aircraft.

EFT and rafale are relatively new and there is still enough development cycle left, not to mention they they bring along new technologies as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d3vski wrote:


America is the only country that still has a huge defence budget to develop new and modern technologies for defence purposes.

.


America is facing huge challenges in its defence budget, because of which the original F22 Raptor orders had to be curtailed.

The F35 JSF testing is also not progressing satisfactorily.
http://www.jdnews.com/articles/problems-98498-martin-pentagon.html



USAF will increasingly rely on Drone Predators or UCAVs in future. While its an exciting technology, obviously IAF has its own priorities. They are buying what they need. So its C17 Globemasters from USA, and Rafale from France.
So be it!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good and informative coverage by NDTV on Rafale

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/thunder-at-100-feet-flying-france-s-rafale-superfighter-250710?pfrom=home-topstories

Quote:
Built into the Rafale fighter, SPECTRA is widely considered the world's most advanced fighter-based electronic warfare suite, a system which is the cornerstone of the Rafale's survivability against a host of the latest threats. SPECTRA is designed to detect threats and provides a multi-spectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers. By detecting threats at long-range, SPECTRA allows the pilot to instantly select the best suited defensive measures combining radar jamming of ground and airborne radars and the deployment of infrared or radar decoying flares and chaff. In a best case scenario, SPECTRA would enable 3D and I to safely exit hostile airspace. (See Pics)

But not on this occasion. We have been detected. A lone enemy Mirage 2000 is trying to position itself behind us to get off a shot with an air to air missile.

Except we have the advantage.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

India to finalize $15 billion Rafale deal by March, Indian Air Force says

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-to-finalize-15-billion-Rafale-deal-by-March-Indian-Air-Force-says/articleshow/24303438.cms
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
India Will Buy 36 Rafale Jets in Fly-Away Condition From France, Says PM Modi

PARIS: India will buy 36 French-manufactured Rafale fighter jets off the shelf, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced on Friday evening, after a meeting with President of France Francois Hollande in Paris. Sources said the Rafale deal could now be for 144 jets instead of 126.


NDTV

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well France is definitely benefitting from the deal.

A recession hit economy sure can use $10 bn .

But has India ever wondered why only the French and the Egyptians are using this aircraft and more importantly, why it has been rejected by at least six to eight other Air Forces?


I feel the Typhoon is a better platform, even though a bit more expensive.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Goat wrote:
Well France is definitely benefitting from the deal.

A recession hit economy sure can use $10 bn .
as India ever wondered why only the French and the Egyptians are using this aircraft and more importantly, why it has been rejected by at least six to eight other Air Forces?


I feel the Typhoon is a better platform, even though a bit more expensive.


Well Typhoon has multiple stakeholders even Saudi Arabia and Italy, so quite naturally they'll all go for it. Why would the buy Rafale when they have invested in Typhoon. Also sale of military aircraft is privy to selected to a few countries, so thats why you won't find them sold world wide. Doesn't say much about the quality of planes. We already have lingering sweet taste of Mirage 2000s.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-to-get-Rafale-fighter-jets-on-IAF-approved-configuration-Manohar-Parrikar-says/articleshow/48162921.cms

India to get Rafale fighter jets on IAF-approved configuration

Jul 21, 2015

The 36 Rafale combat planes and associated systems and weapons would be delivered in the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Tuesday.

As per the India-France joint statement issued during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France earlier this year, the Indian government conveyed to France that in view of the critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft for IAF, it would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible.

The two leaders agreed to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of the combat plane, as part of a separate process underway and the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF, he said in a written reply in Rajya Sabha.

The aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, he said.

A negotiating team has been constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jet planes and recommend the draft agreement.

The meetings of the Indian negotiating team with the French side have commenced, Parrikar said.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-pushes-for-20-more-Rafale-fighters-from-France/articleshow/48289304.cms

IAF pushes for 20 more Rafale fighters from France

July 31, 2015

India and France are now trying to swiftly finalize the government-to-government deal for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale fighters, even as the earlier $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 such jets stands scrapped.

The IAF is pushing for at least 20 additional Rafales over the 36 decided during the Modi-Hollande summit in Paris on April 10. But India is unlikely to buy more than 36 Rafales at this stage, less than one-third of the 126 jets envisaged under the MMRCA project.

"It will take another month or so to clinch the new G-to-G deal, which will entail better terms than what was conveyed by Rafale-manufacturer Dassault Aviation during the MMRCA negotiations. Once the deal is finalized, the deliveries of the 36 jets in a flyaway condition will begin in two years," said an official.

In a written reply in Rajya Sabha, defence minister Manohar Parrikar said the Indian and French teams were negotiating the terms and conditions for the 36-jet deal and would recommend a draft agreement.

"The RFP (request for proposal) issued earlier for procurement of 126 MMRCA has been withdrawn. In this multi-vendor procurement case, the Rafale met all the performance characteristics stipulated in the RFP during the evaluation conducted by IAF," he said.

"The (36) aircraft and associated systems would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by the IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France," he added.

Under the now-scrapped MMRCA project, which had remained deadlocked after Rafale emerged the winner in January 2012 following a hotly-contested global competition among six vendors, the first 18 jets were to come in "a flyaway condition". The rest 108 were to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics in India after transfer of technology.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/policy-budget/industry/2015/11/08/france-india-agree-details-rafale-offsets/75061854/

France, India, Agree To Details on Rafale Offsets

November 8, 2015

Under an offsets deal reached by India and France regarding the acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets, France has agreed that it will fulfill its obligations only within the aerospace arena and not partly through research and development projects, an Indian Defence Ministry source said.

With a final agreement reached on offsets, India and France are likely to sign a protocol by the end of this month to buy 36 Rafales and thereafter the price negotiations will follow, leading to a final deal in the next four to six months, the MoD the source added.

Ever since Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in his April visit to Paris that India intended to buy 36 Rafales on a government-to-government (G2G) basis, talks between India and French were stuck on the issue of offsets, with the French initially not agreeing to discharge offsets at all.

India wants 50 percent of the total amount of the deal, estimated to be around $10 billion for 36 Rafales, including weaponry, to be matched by offsets involving purchases from the Indian aerospace sector, including tie-ups and cooperation with domestic defense companies to boost India's defense production base.

The French wanted 20 percent of the offsets to be discharged through R&D tie ups with India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), but the MoD rejected their request, the source added. The list of R&D projects in which the French had evinced interest to participate is not known.

But Dassault Chairman Eric Trappier said, "We are working with the Indian authorities on the offsets. Nothing has been decided. We are following the Make in India program. It's going in the right direction. Talks are still continuing."

The French Defense Ministry declined comment.

"The offset policy of 2012 allows offset obligations to be discharged through collaboration with DRDO, subject to some conditions. However, offsets are best undertaken through collaboration with industry, for direct impact on defense manufacturing. This may be the reason for the MoD's position," said Vivek Rae, MoD's former director general of procurement.

"It is not a good idea to discharge all offsets through DRDO."

"A G2G contract is a customized contract. So the two countries can agree to a unique set of terms of conditions, but these have to be mutually acceptable. While doing so, neither party can completely overlook the laws, regulations, procedures and precedents," said Amit Cowshish, MoD's former financial adviser.

India typically allows companies to discharge offset obligations through participation in R&D projects along with the direct purchase of equipment and systems in designated areas from industry, and training.

The G2G deal on Rafale was a separate deal to the 2007 request for proposal, which has since been canceled. Under the 2007 RFP, India was to procure 126 Rafales with 108 being license-produced in India.

MoD's top acquisition body, the Defence Acquisition Council, on Sept. 1 gave the go-ahead to the negotiation committee on purchasing Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-signs-36-unit-rafale-contract-429646/

India signs 36-unit Rafale contract

23 September, 2016


India has concluded a deal to acquire 36 Dassault Rafale fighters, with a contract signed in New Delhi by the nation’s defence minister, Manohar Parrikar, and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian on 23 September.

The deal is worth €7.75 billion ($8.69 billion) for the French-built aircraft along with associated weapons and a support package.

Finalisation of the contract brings to a close a long-running acquisition process to equip the Indian air force with the Rafale, which was selected as the winner of its medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender in 2012, defeating the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon. Other previous candidates for the deal included the Lockheed Martin F-16, RAC MiG-35 and Saab Gripen.

The air force was originally slated to acquire 126 aircraft via the programme, but the original deal ran aground over cost concerns. It was revived by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to France in 2105, when he declared that 36 aircraft would be acquired in “fly-away” condition from Dassault. This was keeping in view the “critical operational necessity” of the service, he said at the time.

It remains to be seen if India will decide at a later date to acquire additional fly-away examples of the type, or whether production could be transferred to India at a later date – as was the intention under the original MMRCA tender.

The French airframer says the contract award “represents a decisive step forward in achieving Dassault Aviation’s goal of establishing itself in India with a view to developing wide-ranging co-operation under the ‘Make in India’ policy.”

European company MBDA will supply a package of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons for India’s Rafales, but a company source declines to specify which systems will be supplied.

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