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747-237 · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: IAF C-130J crashes, 5 killed

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-aircraft-C-130J-Super-Hercules-crashes-near-Gwalior-5-killed/articleshow/32838303.cms

IAF aircraft C-130 J Super Hercules crashes, 5 killed

recently acquired C-130J transport aircraft of the Indian Air Force crashed 72 miles west of Gwalior airbase on Friday morning, killing at least five personnel on board.

The IAF has no official word yet on how many personnel were aboard the aircraft.

The crash of the four-engine US made aircraft has baffled experienced pilots, given its safety records and extreme agility. One senior air force pilot said the accident was "bizarre", and speculated that either the crew was incapacitated or a fire broke out aboard the plane.

Rescue operations are underway at the crash site, air force sources said. "The aircraft was airborne from Agra at 10am for a routine flying training mission. A court of inquiry has been ordered to investigate into the cause of the accident," the IAF said in a statement.

The crash took place in Karauli district in Rajasthan, some 72 miles from Gwalior, where it was due to land.

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Aseem · Member Joined: 15 Dec 2006 Posts: 2841 Location: YYZ

I tell you what happened... some foolhardy pilot or instructor didn't find his macho enough to follow the rules. "chalta hai"

VT-ASJ
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747-237 · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:54 pm Post subject:

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The_Goat · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject:

Some achievement this! First the fires in submarines and now a brand new, tried and tested aircraft going down. Something is seriously amiss with India's military.

RIP to the crew!

Going by this, the poor chaps had a pretty gruesome death. People who came to help did not have boats to cross the river and provide assistance. Only in India..... Rolling Eyes

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/With-no-boats-to-cross-MP-cops-were-mute-spectators-to-IAFs-burning-C-130J-Super-Hercules/articleshow/32857363.cms
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sabya99 · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:17 pm Post subject:

It was a low altitude air dropping exercise , perhaps as low as 250 ft. Some unmarked hill top got on the way and the aircraft crashed. But C130 must have terrain following radar. This should not happen. May God bless those brave souls!!
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The_Goat · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:04 am Post subject:

ssbmat · Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710

The way I see things happening, I think there is perhaps excessive coverage of "military" incidents in the general public domain. I mean, I am equally guilty commenting about all the stuff myself.

I think some things must be best left to the capability of the institutions. I am sure they will find out and fix the issues cuz they love their own lives just as much as everybody else.

Just about everything is being linked to corruption/scam/laxity etc. This discussion should not be triggered due to such incidents/accidents but should be an ongoing action.
The Air Force or the Navy are not civilian institutions that should be accountable to the public like an Indian Railways/Air India are, for example.
If anyone it is that minister and his cohorts who should be accountable.
Catch them by their pants/lungis but let the men in uniform do their job without disturbance.

desiguy2447 · Member Joined: 23 Feb 2007 Posts: 37

I agree with most lets just wait on the cause. I have gone to most Indian newspaper websites to see the comments and I am sick of all blame that IAF pilots are not trained, that the US hid something in the Cj130 and turn it on causing the crash, etc.. (Note all the stuff is nonsense at its best)

Whatever the cause of the crash is the IAF will find out and fix the issue so it does not happen again. On a good note I am glad we ordered another six of these planes though we lost one yesterday I am sure after elections it will be replaced with another maybe with some goodwill from Lockheed Martin or not.

stealthpilot · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB

747-237 · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:07 pm Post subject:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-sends-blackbox-of-crashed-c130j-to-us-for-decoding-data/461285-3.html

India sends blackbox of crashed C-130J to US for decoding data

The black box of the C-130J transport aircraft that crashed near Gwalior on Friday has suffered damage and the Air Force has sent it to the US to seek the assistance of its manufacturer Lockheed Martin in decoding the data, IAF officials said on Sunday.

The connectors of the Flight Data Recorder or the black box are damaged along with the card inside the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR). "To avoid any loss of data while trying to decode the equipment, we have decided to send the black box to the US," an IAF spokesperson said. The black box was sent by an early morning flight on Sunday to Lockheed Martin, he said.

The delay in decoding the black box data would also mean a delay in determining the cause of the crash, he said. The IAF had stated on Friday that it would come out with a preliminary report on the reasons behind the mishap in 24 hours. The IAF spokesperson also denied reports suggesting that the C-130J fleet has been grounded after the crash, saying the aircraft did not fly on Saturday as the personnel of the squadron were busy in the last rites of the five victims of the crash.

The Super Hercules Special Operations transport aircraft crashed near Gwalior killing five crew members on Friday last after taking off from Agra. The aircraft had apparently hit a hillock before crashing on the rocky surface on the banks of Chambal river near Gwalior.
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shivendrashukla · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject:

After reading the comments, all I can say is guys please give some time for the real cause to come out. It is very easy to say that pilots were not trained, adventurism etc. Please remember this was an extremely experienced crew and no one wants do die.

Let the court of inquiry come to its conclusions and we can then see what the real cause are. Remember brand new aircrafts has crashed before too. SRJ100 and Gol 738 comes into mind.

sumantra · Member Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 4685 Location: New Delhi

At this moment, I will echo what Shukla-ji has just said, albeit in his characteristic mild manner. In this case, some of us have some more information from some of our IAF friends, which may become public very soon, once the official court of inquiry gives its results. Let us spare a moment to think about those brave airmen that performed the supreme sacrifice to avoid the huge plane going down over a populated area. These were extremely experienced airmen at the helm, and let us not deride the fallen, in any way. Airmen are acutely aware of the cost of a invaluable defence asset (the Super Herc, here) to the public exchequer as well. What we civilians to not realise, or often appreciate, is the extreme pains that armed force personnel take for us, who would not blink an eyelid about making the supreme sacrifice to save civilian lives. Let us at least, out of respect for the armed forces personnel on this forum, and those reading this, refrain from making adverse comments, when the truth is somewhat far from what has been doing the rounds, both on the grapevine, as well as some part of the speculation on the news channels.
Sincerely, Sumantra.

The_Goat · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:57 pm Post subject:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Did-IAFs-US-made-C-130J-Super-Hercules-that-crashed-have-fake-Chinese-parts/articleshow/32977838.cms

Did IAF’s 'US-made' C-130J Super Hercules that crashed have fake Chinese parts?

WASHINGTON: India's newly-acquired American C-130J Super Hercules plane that crashed last week near Gwalior has been under intense scrutiny in the United States and Canada after a Senate investigation concluded that counterfeit parts in the aircraft's display systems could cause it to "lose data or even go blank altogether" in midflight, with potentially catastrophic consequences.

A 2011-2012 investigation by the US Senate armed services committee eventually traced the counterfeit electronic parts used in the C-130J, C-27J, and many other US military systems to a company in Shenzhen, China, called Hong Dark Electronic Trade Company. Hong Dark sold the parts at issue to Global IC Trading Group, an independent distributor in the US, which in turn sold it to L-3 Communications Display Systems, which in turn supplied it to Lockheed Martin, the US military's prime contractor for the C-130J.

I wonder if the MH 777 also had counterfeit Chinese parts, which caused it to crash.
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747-237 · Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:59 pm Post subject:

sabya99 · Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject:

Sometimes I think was it necessary for IAF to buy such an expensive tubo plane as HERC!!. After all it comes with a price tag of 1000 crores/ plane. You might get a few IL-76/78 or may be ten AN-26 with that price tag.Its time to think hard!
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shivendrashukla · Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:06 am Post subject:

sabya99 · Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject:

747-237 · Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:42 am Post subject:

Bearing the tail number KC-3803, the aircraft was the third of six C-130Js that were delivered to the Indian air force between 2010 and 2012. Part of a two-aircraft training sortie, it had taken off from Agra and crashed near Gwalior air base, where the lead aircraft later landed safely.

The ill-fated transport was commanded by Wg Cdr Prashant Joshi, an experienced pilot who was deputy formation leader when three C-130Js took part in the type's inaugural flypast at India’s Republic Day parade in 2012.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-waits-on-c-130j-crash-findings-397750/
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Aseem · Member Joined: 15 Dec 2006 Posts: 2841 Location: YYZ

stealthpilot · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB

The_Goat · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject:

shivendrashukla · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject:

sabya99 · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject:

Il-76 is not a junk aircraft at all. American Air force generals have lot of respect for it. The entire Afgan war of Soviet Union was initiated and sustained by this aircraft . Not a single was lost neither by ground fire or Stinger missile attack and was suitable for operation from contested air space. Of course I am not familiar with spare parts issue or Ukraine independence issues. But I still could not apprehend the price tag of 1000 crores/ aircraft! Perhaps lots of kick back attached to it. Any way thanks forum for the input about HERC. Very Happy

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stealthpilot · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: BLR, DXB

Junk may have been a harsh word .... outdated perhaps?

sabya99 · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject:

If desi economy could fit the bill of paying 1000 crores/ bird then it is fine with me. But no one cares for that any more.
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shivendrashukla · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:09 pm Post subject:

747-237 · Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:22 pm Post subject:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/error-in-piloting-led-to-c-130j-hercules-aircraft-crash-indian-air-force-sources-549988

Error in Piloting Led to C-130J Hercules Aircraft Crash: Indian Air Force Sources

June 29, 2014

Error in piloting is understood to have been found as the reason behind the crash of Air Force's C-130J Super Hercules aircraft in March in which five service personnel, including four officers, were killed near Gwalior.

The Court of Inquiry is almost complete and error in piloting is believed to have been the reason behind the crash, highly placed IAF sources said in New Delhi.

The aircraft, worth over Rs. 900 crore, had crashed while practicing a tactical operation along with another C-130J Super Hercules aircraft after taking off from Agra on March 28.

All the crew on board - four officers and one Warrant Officer - lost their lives in the mishap.

The IAF Court of Inquiry under an officer of the rank of Air Commodore (equivalent to a Brigadier in Army) is in the final stages and the report will be soon submitted to the Defence Ministry, IAF spokesperson Group Captain Gerard Galway said.

India recently inducted six C-130J Super Hercules aircraft which were bought from the US at a cost of around Rs. 6,000 crore (USD 1 billion) four years ago.

The inquiry was held back for some time in the early stages as the black box of the aircraft had suffered damage and had to be sent to the original equipment manufacturer Lockheed Martin Corporation's facility in the US.

The home base of the 77 squadron 'Veiled Vipers' operating the ill-fated aircraft is Hindan in Ghaziabad.

The aircraft had recently landed at Ladakh's Daulat Beg Oldie air field near the Sino-India border and have helped in boosting IAF's capability to airlift troops closer to the border in times of emergency.

IAF has also placed orders for another six such aircraft, which are planned to be deployed in Panagarh, West Bengal, near the headquarters of Indian Army's 17 Strike Corp being raised to counter the threat along the border with China.

Nimish · Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject:

^^ How tragic, especially as it will weigh down on the family of the pilot(s).

I hope this leads to some changes/ improvements in the training and procedures.
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megatop747 · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:09 pm Post subject:

Has our media shown this version of what happened??

ssbmat · Member Joined: 20 Dec 2006 Posts: 1710

I am sorry if this appears to be a dumb question, especially to those who are associated in some way with the Indian armed forces.
When most of the equipment was Soviet, including the Transport/airlift arm, the IAF pilots would have been conversant primarily with metric system ie- height in metres , which is the Soviet norm. With the reorientation to Western equipment which probably always measures height in feet, would it be a bit of a challenge to quickly interpret the data on your flight displays especially during certain "advanced" manuevers, so would 100 be interpreted as 100m~300 feet (mentally) when in fact it was indicated 100 feet ?
I mean, a lot of these things have happened in the commercial world atleast..

shivendrashukla · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject:

sumantra · Member Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 4685 Location: New Delhi

I am not sure if the the time is right for me to make this comment, and Shukla-ji may castigate me for this, this is what I got from a retired IAF officer who had attended Wing Cdr Joshi's funeral (who was to have taken over the Super Herc team under his able leadership, ironically). Let us spare a thought for the top-notch crew on baord the ill-fated plane. The two Super Hercs were on a Nap-of-the-Earth (NoE) mission, which entails flying extremely low over the terrain. The second Herc unfortunately got caught up in the downwash of the first one, and one has to feel for Wing Cdr Joshi and the four other officers: in their last few moments, they managed to steer the aircraft away from a populated region.

Dr. Ganguly: why the Super Herc? For a layman, just two reasons, among many others.
1. The Uttarakhand disaster. No other plane could have managed such a lot, on such short and un-prepared airstrips.
2. Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO). Again, the Super Herc, and the Super Herc, alone.

A few more points:
- A turboprop is not old technology. It is a turbine-powered aircraft, and perhaps the most fuel efficient. In many applications, one simply does not need the speed. And come on, turboprops can be very fast, as well. What about the NK-12 contra-props on the Tu-95/142 `Bear'? You cannot call that plane slow, by any means.
- The C-130J is not the same C-130 of the olden times. It is almost a completely new aircraft, with superficial similarities with the old one.
- The IAF's transport group has different planes for different tasks, different capabilities, and different reasons. One cannot compare planes on the basis of the price tags alone.
- An-26? Now, that is an ancient plane. An An-32 suits the IAF perfectly in terms of the hot and high capability. The refurbishment programme bears testimony to that.
- The Il-76 `Gajraj' has had its share of issues (engines, among them), but for some applications, it is still one of the best around.
Sincerely, Sumantra.

shivendrashukla · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:07 pm Post subject:

Sumantra Sir, I can never even dream to castigate you Wink

. You with your in dept knowledge and analysis have put in very good points. I agree with you completely Sir.

Cheers
Shivendra