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malQ
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Location: Delhi, India
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 Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Old plane, new plane . . . what will you fly today? |
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I have been using airlines basis average fleet age as one parameter, and so when the luxury of booking in advance is possible, then its usually Indigo or Kingfisher or Jet. Maybe Spicejet too.
But, a few days ago, sudden trip to Mumbai from Delhi, and so I landed up at the airport, bought a ticket on the next flight, which was on S2-Jetlite.
The aircraft was VT-SIE, as I found out after disembarking from the bus, and the condition was as per this photo:-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vm2827/2438482144/
Didn't have much time to get closer, but those who understand airframes and metal repair, will get the point.
I would have refused to board, but (a) the flights were full and (b) I was in a hurry to get to Mumbai.
I have never seen a passenger aircraft, and I include all the old-gold 737-200 from IC/CD that I have used regularly, with so much patchwork on the skin.
Anybody seen more? |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Pls Explain.How does the Structural repair on the Skin make the Aircraft unsafe.
Those are Manufacturer approved structural repair schemes carried out to the Airframe based on Official docs like the structural repair manual.
This damage repair could have been needed post a collosion with a Ground vehicle.What was the choice.AOG the Aircraft permanently or scrap it.
The Aircraft in question is as airworthy as a brand new Airframe from the Manufacturer.
Every Aircraft has Scheduled Mx checks carried out which ensure the Aircraft is Airworthy.Every part of the Aircraft has a requirement procedure that is documented.
In Fact a Shining Airframe Exterior with a snagged powerplant or operating system would be more of a risk.
From a Pax point of view I understand the concern,But its not what you are thinking.
If I take you for a walkaround every Airframe in the Country,I can show you structural repairs carried out on most Airframes,some visible others hidden but all documented,certified & airworthy.
cheers.
regds
MEL
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Aiel
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malQ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | Pls Explain.How does the Structural repair on the Skin make the Aircraft unsafe.
Those are Manufacturer approved structural repair schemes carried out to the Airframe based on Official docs like the structural repair manual.
This damage repair could have been needed post a collosion with a Ground vehicle.What was the choice.AOG the Aircraft permanently or scrap it.
The Aircraft in question is as airworthy as a brand new Airframe from the Manufacturer.
Every Aircraft has Scheduled Mx checks carried out which ensure the Aircraft is Airworthy.Every part of the Aircraft has a requirement procedure that is documented.
In Fact a Shining Airframe Exterior with a snagged powerplant or operating system would be more of a risk.
From a Pax point of view I understand the concern,But its not what you are thinking.
If I take you for a walkaround every Airframe in the Country,I can show you structural repairs carried out on most Airframes,some visible others hidden but all documented,certified & airworthy.
cheers.
regds
MEL |
Point I am making is this - as a passenger, I now have a choice. Airworthiness is not the issue, risk taking ability is the issue, and if for the same price, I can fly as a pax in an airplane which is newer and fewer obvious repairs, then I shall wish to do so.
On what the airline should do, I don't know, maybe they should run it as a freighter. |
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sammyk
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| You wouldn't board because of that patch? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's all psychological. |
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the_380
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Aircrafts are thoroughly inspected before their flight, however old they might be, unless they're not decided by the airline they will be obviously safe to fly.
Just a human thought
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airindia787
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the_380
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Aloha 243 was a incident that changed a lot about airplanes, rare...
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Aiel wrote: | Thank god you were not flying on this:
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Aiel,
If am not misaken, this was part of a procedure IA and Boeing went in for extend the life of the 732s. Was called "overlapping", I think and was done for all the Alliance Air 732s that were still airworthy.
Am trying to locate the newspaper cutting on this when IA made a fairly large announcement on this.
But even after this, there were still a few restrictions on the flight ceiling the plane could attain. |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Aiel.
KCM is correct.
The pic you pointed out is the Lapjoint Mod which was called for post the Aloha Incident.
Its a Repair scheme to ensure safety.It may look bad but has increased the Aircraft structural safety.
regds
MEL
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malQ
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| sammyk wrote: | | You wouldn't board because of that patch? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's all psychological. |
Metal fatigue is a subject I know a wee bit about, and no amount of commercial considerations by an airline or aircraft manufacturer is going to deviate from the single point that this does impact the strucutural strength, and often in ways that can not be calculated.
My point is this - if a passenger airline wants me to board ole' patchwork, then they need to let me know in advance. It s not called stupid, its called being sensible, and that's that. |
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Aiel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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@ Mel and KCM, the tiny patch on MalQ's aircraft does look rather insignificant to the rivets on the CD plane.
Also, thanks for the info, as to why the mass patchwork was done.
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sammyk
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| malQ wrote: | | sammyk wrote: | | You wouldn't board because of that patch? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's all psychological. |
Metal fatigue is a subject I know a wee bit about, and no amount of commercial considerations by an airline or aircraft manufacturer is going to deviate from the single point that this does impact the strucutural strength, and often in ways that can not be calculated.
My point is this - if a passenger airline wants me to board ole' patchwork, then they need to let me know in advance. It s not called stupid, its called being sensible, and that's that. |
Nope, nothing sensible about it, it's just plain stupid. It's paranoia, it's psychological, but not sensible. In fact, I would not be surprised if that patched area is actually stronger now than it was before it needed the patch.
Aircraft all around the world fly with patches. May you can't even see. How many of them have fallen out of the sky and how many because of a patch?
The best solution for you to avoid flying on planes with patches is to take the train. |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Its True Majority of Aircraft worldwide have patches or rather structural/skin repair.
The Repaired part is structurally proven to be as strong as the area not having being reworked.remember the use of doubler & tripler.
All these are approved repairs.The only drawback is added weight & airframe drag which is taken into consideration.
About commercial informing the Pax about the Aircraft having a patchwork....Mx has cleared the Aircraft post Scheduled/Unscheduled Mx & the Aircraft is considered airworthy.
regds
MEL
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malQ
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| sammyk wrote: | | malQ wrote: | | sammyk wrote: | | You wouldn't board because of that patch? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's all psychological. |
Metal fatigue is a subject I know a wee bit about, and no amount of commercial considerations by an airline or aircraft manufacturer is going to deviate from the single point that this does impact the strucutural strength, and often in ways that can not be calculated.
My point is this - if a passenger airline wants me to board ole' patchwork, then they need to let me know in advance. It s not called stupid, its called being sensible, and that's that. |
Nope, nothing sensible about it, it's just plain stupid. It's paranoia, it's psychological, but not sensible. In fact, I would not be surprised if that patched area is actually stronger now than it was before it needed the patch.
Aircraft all around the world fly with patches. May you can't even see. How many of them have fallen out of the sky and how many because of a patch?
The best solution for you to avoid flying on planes with patches is to take the train. |
1) Would you like to know more about how insurance policies for high nett worth individuals as well as employees of some corporates, would not cover travel on airlines that operate aircraft with such repairs, before you go on and on, please? Not just specific aircraft, but whole airlines do not make the cut.
2) Next, would you like to know more about why such repaired aircraft and/or overage aircraft attract higher insurance premiums, for the specific aircraft as well as the rest of the airline, please, without in any way increasing the payout for passengers?
While mel/hawk21 is making sense here, I am basically waiting for sammyk to walk into the trap that his own comments are springing for him.
Sure, aircraft with rivets were what it was all about in a day and age, not too long ago. And the IC/CD 737-200 shown, as well as other old ones around including those in Blue Dart, are now for freighter ops.
All I am saying is that if airlines are going to operate such aircraft, then they need to make public announcements about them, and inform pax before they board them. |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| malQ wrote: |
Sure, aircraft with rivets were what it was all about in a day and age, not too long ago. And the IC/CD 737-200 shown, as well as other old ones around including those in Blue Dart, are now for freighter ops.
All I am saying is that if airlines are going to operate such aircraft, then they need to make public announcements about them, and inform pax before they board them. |
The B732 has started to be phased off as Pax Aircraft is not because of the Rivets or Lap joint mod.But rather the Aircraft got economically expensive to mantain.Fuel consumption on the JT8D series is much more,older aircraft undergo CPCP [Corrosion prevention & control programme],SSID[Significant structural inspection Document] checks which cost money.Component alert values are lower so spares need to be replaced faster.....Hence the balance tilts due to financial needs not structural strength wise.
About public announcements....as explained earlier Mx carries out approved checks on each airframe in scheduled intervals & released for service in airworthy condition.
regds
MEL
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sammyk
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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malQ, what trap am I walking into?
I'm really not saying anything different than MEL, he's just putting it into technical terms. The plane is airworthy, that's all that should matter. The airline won't take a risk otherwise.
Insurance companies and high net worth individuals are typically paranoid folks so it doesn't surprise me. However, I wonder how how many patches you'll find on VJMs and Donald Trumps old 727s that they still use regularly. How about John Travolta's 707? What if these corporate types with say a BBJ or ACJ have a ramp accident and the plane has to be patched, do they immediately sell the plane because their insurance company doesn't cover it? |
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sumantra
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: |
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On a slightly different note, IIRC, the old Indian Airlines website had a section
on the checks carried on on aircraft, and when the next one was due.
I do not see it on the current one:
http://www.indianairlines.in/Scripts/aboutus_aircraftmaintenance.aspx
What I do not remember is whether the data was there for each aircraft in the fleet, and how up-to-date they kept this data. I found this rather unique and interesting - increasing my admiration for the airline even further.
Meljoe could tell us more technical details about what checks are performed, and with what frequency - he's an expert on this.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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The_Goat
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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well, actually I'm rather fed up of flying in brand new planes. Everytime I fly, it is always in something built during the last 15 years. How boring.
I'd like a battered bird for a change. I'd actually give anything to fly in an An-12, Tu-134, DC-3 or a Constellation.
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the_380
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| malQ wrote: | | All I am saying is that if airlines are going to operate such aircraft, then they need to make public announcements about them, and inform pax before they board them. |
What announcements? You expect the airline to tell you the age of the aircraft every time you fly and what maintenance it has undergone?
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QF124
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| sammyk wrote: | | Insurance companies and high net worth individuals are typically paranoid folks so it doesn't surprise me. However, I wonder how how many patches you'll find on VJMs and Donald Trumps old 727s that they still use regularly. How about John Travolta's 707? What if these corporate types with say a BBJ or ACJ have a ramp accident and the plane has to be patched, do they immediately sell the plane because their insurance company doesn't cover it? |
Aha and you are normal is it???
Have u ever heared about the word called introspection . Just introspect as if you are one of the high profile individuals who has an insurance which says tommorrow u die in some air accident on some repaired aircraft your family wont be paid a dime then can u afford to be careless...
Better be safe than sorry and whats wrong in that.... Just because u dnt hv any of those insurances it makes other people who have it as people who are stupid and paranoid.
MalQ just gave a point and asked for a solution if you got a practical one suggest it otherwise no need to bullshit |
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sammyk
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| QF124 wrote: | | sammyk wrote: | | Insurance companies and high net worth individuals are typically paranoid folks so it doesn't surprise me. However, I wonder how how many patches you'll find on VJMs and Donald Trumps old 727s that they still use regularly. How about John Travolta's 707? What if these corporate types with say a BBJ or ACJ have a ramp accident and the plane has to be patched, do they immediately sell the plane because their insurance company doesn't cover it? |
Aha and you are normal is it???
Have u ever heared about the word called introspection . Just introspect as if you are one of the high profile individuals who has an insurance which says tommorrow u die in some air accident on some repaired aircraft your family wont be paid a dime then can u afford to be careless...
Better be safe than sorry and whats wrong in that.... Just because u dnt hv any of those insurances it makes other people who have it as people who are stupid and paranoid.
MalQ just gave a point and asked for a solution if you got a practical one suggest it otherwise no need to bullshit |
I gave two examples of high profile individuals who fly 40+ old 727s, are they stupid? Are they risking their lives every time they step on board, more so than others? What about their families? I guess they don't care about them?
Besides, what makes these so called high profile folks more important than you are I? We have families too which are just as important to us as theirs are to them. We have life insurance too, maybe not as much, but it's still there.
malQ gave his opinion, I gave mine. If it's bullshit to you then you don't have to read it. You can go play with your farm tractors instead. |
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QF124
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| sammyk wrote: |
I gave two examples of high profile individuals who fly 40+ old 727s, are they stupid? Are they risking their lives every time they step on board, more so than others? What about their families? I guess they don't care about them?
Besides, what makes these so called high profile folks more important than you are I? We have families too which are just as important to us as theirs are to them. We have life insurance too, maybe not as much, but it's still there.
malQ gave his opinion, I gave mine. If it's bullshit to you then you don't have to read it. You can go play with your farm tractors instead. |
Hold on Texas Cowboy where is the proof that your beloved millionares hold such insurance policies with certain clauses which prevents them from flying in an old commericial aircraft..... We werent just talking of millionares ova here.
MalQ asked for a solution for such individuals and you quoted they should go by train. Do you think thats an appropriate solution. Its crap and not just to me but to everyone out here . And yeah we do use farm tractors where the economics are in play after all its money involved ...
Aviation doesnt run on people who tend to act like armchair ceo,s and find it erotic that an euro 3 complaint tug is pushing back their aircraft or want their baggage to handled by them because its pleasing to their eye
Dude its easy to type in ova here . It will be great if you type some sense into your arguments rather than just indulge in blogging |
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sammyk
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| QF124 wrote: |
Hold on Texas Cowboy where is the proof that your beloved millionares hold such insurance policies with certain clauses which prevents them from flying in an old commericial aircraft..... We werent just talking of millionares ova here.
MalQ asked for a solution for such individuals and you quoted they should go by train. Do you think thats an appropriate solution. Its crap and not just to me but to everyone out here . And yeah we do use farm tractors where the economics are in play after all its money involved ...
Aviation doesnt run on people who tend to act like armchair ceo,s and find it erotic that an euro 3 complaint tug is pushing back their aircraft or want their baggage to handled by them because its pleasing to their eye
Dude its easy to type in ova here . It will be great if you type some sense into your arguments rather than just indulge in blogging |
I wasn't the one who said millionaires have policies that prevent them from flying certain aircraft/airlines. That was malQ.
malQ does not want to fly on aircraft that have been patched. Since there are so many aircraft that have been patched, whether obvious like the photos provided earlier in the thread or hidden, my suggestion was that he take the train since he would be highly inconvenienced waiting for a flawless aircraft. The comment was only half serious.
Erotic? Heh, dude, it's just an opinion. I already said that if those tractors are in fact more efficient than a modern tug that that's what they should use. I never said they should use a modern tug based on looks alone. Am I not allowed to have a superficial opinion? Does everything have to be linked to costs, etc? |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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On query of Scheduled checks.
Every Quality control dept of an Airline has the Approved schedules monitored on Daily basis,with coordination with DGCA.The attempt is to keep scheduled checks of each type Aircraft amongst various operators similiar.
Its too large a topic to explain about.
But I'll just say.Trust me the Safety system with regards to Quality control & Mx is very good in the country.
And as said before.A patch does not make the Aircraft less Airworthy.
regds
MEL
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malQ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Let me spell it out:- there are certain corporate entities in India, both domestic as well as MNC, which specify travel parameters. For example:-
a) No planned highway journeys after dark in some parts of the country.
b) Air travel only by such and such airlines.
c) Road travel only such-and-such taxi/fleet operators.
The big factor here is safety, based on a variety of aspects.
In one specific case, the only airlines permitted for any employees of one such company, a mining major MNC out of Australia, within India, are 9W, IC and I think they now include IT as well as 6E.
With the latest mergers (9W+S2, AI+IC and IT+DN) the question then arises - what happens here?
+++
MEL/Hawk21 is correct from the basic maintenance all aircraft are equal point of view. Though I would like him to introspect - different airlines get away with different company attitudes, and the results are very visible on the aircraft, to observant passenger. I have, for example, found that cleanliness of aircraft wheel rims, visible re-capped tyres, and oil stains on wings are two give-aways of airline attitudes towards maintenance.
But what about spcecific parameters of insurance, especially as applied to overage and repaired aircraft, which is where sammyK is walking into a trap.
I am just trying to provoke a debate on this subject, and there are people who know what I am talking about on this forum, but those people are holding back their views.
But this I maintain - as a passenger, an aircraft may be airworthy certified and all that, but if it is operating under conditions, then as a passenger I need to know about them. And post-merger, what rule applies to the new joint entity, do they aim for the higher standards of one airline or do they nibble downwards towards the lower standards of the other airline or do they meet somewhere in the middle?
Remember, I also said that the subjectaircraft was operating on a 100% full load, not one seat empty, with baggage, and on the first hot days of a hot summer, in the afternoon. |
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sammyk
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| malQ wrote: | Let me spell it out:- there are certain corporate entities in India, both domestic as well as MNC, which specify travel parameters. For example:-
a) No planned highway journeys after dark in some parts of the country.
b) Air travel only by such and such airlines.
c) Road travel only such-and-such taxi/fleet operators.
But what about spcecific parameters of insurance, especially as applied to overage and repaired aircraft, which is where sammyK is walking into a trap.
Remember, I also said that the subjectaircraft was operating on a 100% full load, not one seat empty, with baggage, and on the first hot days of a hot summer, in the afternoon. |
Just out of curiosity are these travel rules only applied to India, whether an Indian company or a MNC doing business in India? Do they have the same rules in their home country, in the case of MNCs?
Please explain the trap I am walking into. I take it you saying that the insurance company feels that the aircraft is a greater risk to insure than it was before the repairs? Do you think that's actually true or that the insurance company is just covering its ass just in case the plane does go down and someone decides to sue the airline and claim it happened because it was repaired?
As far as the plane at 100% load on a hot day, aren't aircraft supposed to be airworthy for their maximum abilities? Aren't they designed to operate with a full load and in different types of climates and adjustments made if they are not? |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: |
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An Airline Mx Schedule will stay one,irrespective of merger.
About Cleanliness......The cleaning programme of Airlines can differ,hence the difference.
But Mx is very strictly followed & has a great deal into each check.
regds
MEL
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ameya
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Two years ago, one of my distant relative, now a british national was telling me , that some person had raised an issue in British media, that in India, embassy employees have been issued a warning not to travel by CD, the person wanted to know why the descriminations betwen employees & nationals.
All Britishers should be made aware that you shouldnt fly xyz airline.. |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ameya wrote: | Two years ago, one of my distant relative, now a british national was telling me , that some person had raised an issue in British media, that in India, embassy employees have been issued a warning not to travel by CD, the person wanted to know why the descriminations betwen employees & nationals.
All Britishers should be made aware that you shouldnt fly xyz airline.. |
What was the reason given,because apart from older fleet of B732s,not sure what the concern was.
regds
MEL
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