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India plans aircraft manufacture with Airbus

 
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karatecatman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: India plans aircraft manufacture with Airbus Reply with quote

http://tinyurl.com/3syhhu
TIMES OF INDIA

Govt plans aircraft making with Airbus

Beginning might be made with ATRs.
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cryign shame that 40 years after the first license made HS748 flew form Kanpur, we are still dependent on the licensed approach to build aircraft.

Sad!

The Saras, which could have been an efffective player globally in the 18 seat market, is handicapped by being grossly overweight.

Looks like the license built option is the only way to go! Sad
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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looking at the Success of Indian Car manufacturers in producing World class Cars....It is disapointing to note that the progress in aviation manufacturing in India has not reached a level it should have in 40+ years.
Its high time we concentrated on Manufacturing 70-100 seater Aircraft which would be in tunes with todays times.

This will def benifit the Airlines in this country.

regds
MEL
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the_380
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue will take some more time. I happened to meet an entrepreneur based in Russia in Dec who owns a defence related industry and has ties with the Indian Navy (supplies original spares) but now those spares are indian manufactured with license.

He was saying that India has enough talent to take on the challenge by all the European and American companies but the problems are investments. Even though companies like Tata have money, they are not willing to invest in something like this. Maybe a shipyard for building aircraft carriers or warplanes or even civilian planes. The reason is that the income here is very slow as compared to faster selling products like cars.

He recruited around 10 Indian students from Top Class Engg schools in India and claimed that his Russian students were no where close to them. But Indian companies are not having that right attitude needed for a company of this kind. As a car manufacturing company, Tata Motors excels but they are not ready to take on such a challenge because of fear and lack of confidence about their success in this.

These industries need two things money and brains, although we have both, till they do not meet in a balanced manner, its gonna be some time till we get an airplane making company of India.
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The_Goat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_380 wrote:


He was saying that India has enough talent to take on the challenge by all the European and American companies but the problems are investments. Even though companies like Tata have money, they are not willing to invest in something like this. Maybe a shipyard for building aircraft carriers or warplanes or even civilian planes. The reason is that the income here is very slow as compared to faster selling products like cars.


Well, if Brazil can come up with world beating designs and make such an impact on the airline industry with Embraer, why can't India do it. It is not that Brazil has much more investing capacity than India does, is it. The simple reason why India is nowhere in this field is because our aviation design engineers are not up to the mark. While we are good at modifying and re-engineering existing designs, we cannot come up with new stuff.

Quote:

He recruited around 10 Indian students from Top Class Engg schools in India and claimed that his Russian students were no where close to them. But Indian companies are not having that right attitude needed for a company of this kind.


Again, are these designing things or simply re-engineering existing designs? Most Russian companies only re-engineer and refurbish stuff these days, as their top designers have all migrated to Europe and the US. Most top-of-the-line Russian products available today are based on stuff which were basically designed in the Soviet era.

Quote:

As a car manufacturing company, Tata Motors excels but they are not ready to take on such a challenge because of fear and lack of confidence about their success in this.

These industries need two things money and brains, although we have both, till they do not meet in a balanced manner, its gonna be some time till we get an airplane making company of India.


Well, when it comes to designing, aviation and automobiles are two very different things. Don't forget that even the Tata Trucks are based on a Mercedes Benz design from the 1970s. Even their first foray into small cars- the Tatamobile which came out in the late 1990s was very heavily based on a Mercedes design. It took the Tatas several years of 'learning the ropes' before they could come up with designs of their own. They owe their expertise to their own experience, and not to the academic prowess of Indian design engineers.
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the_380
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Goat wrote:

Well, if Brazil can come up with world beating designs and make such an impact on the airline industry with Embraer, why can't India do it. It is not that Brazil has much more investing capacity than India does, is it. The simple reason why India is nowhere in this field is because our aviation design engineers are not up to the mark. While we are good at modifying and re-engineering existing designs, we cannot come up with new stuff.

Brazil has invested sincerly on Embraer, they have dedicated their work not like what you see in HAL designs existing in papers one LCA aircraft program has been delayed. Even a country like Iran claims it has two indigenous fighter planes. Its not about ideas in designing, its about the lack of technology to aid these designings. The same enggs from IIT have worked in the 787 program, obviously their brains don't work better when they go out of the country. Its just the lack of the necessary sophisticated eqp which are needed.
Quote:

Again, are these designing things or simply re-engineering existing designs? Most Russian companies only re-engineer and refurbish stuff these days, as their top designers have all migrated to Europe and the US. Most top-of-the-line Russian products available today are based on stuff which were basically designed in the Soviet era.

These are parts which were custom designed according to the needs of the navy as they are upgrading some tactical systems, its completely designing and not re engg.

Quote:


Well, when it comes to designing, aviation and automobiles are two very different things. Don't forget that even the Tata Trucks are based on a Mercedes Benz design from the 1970s. Even their first foray into small cars- the Tatamobile which came out in the late 1990s was very heavily based on a Mercedes design. It took the Tatas several years of 'learning the ropes' before they could come up with designs of their own. They owe their expertise to their own experience, and not to the academic prowess of Indian design engineers.


I too agree aviation and automobiles are different sectors, but atleast even if Indian companies start by copying concepts from Airbus or Boeing we can come into the right path after sometime, thats whta Chinese fighters are all about, original designs from Russia but later on developed.
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COUGAR
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a big difference in the fighter and commercial aircraft programmes in the country. The fighter programmes now have "user Groups" meaning the Airforce and Navy sitting in with the design teams. The same is not happening with the teams working on COmmercial aircraft designs: not that there are too many of those!

Second is the attitude of the babus: they are not encouraging towards Civil Aircraft programmes in both development or marketing: they have the belief that why reinvent the wheel? Lets buy from ATR or Airbus of Boeing. And lobbying groups, with fat "entertainment accounts" contribute to this attitude.

There were atleast 2 programmes planned in the 80's in "Empress Indiras" time: A 60 seat "growth alternative" to the HS748 and a 100 seat jet. Imagine a competitve 60 seater prop today: Jet, IC and KF all could have made use of it if it had been followed through!

Also a huge inferiority complex and lack of customer focus: there have been specific cases of RFP's coming in and inadequate followup. This is specifically referring to the Dornier 228 which HAL manufactures. Our babus did not push these cases because of this inferiority complex. Remember the attitude shown by the Hockey Association in the film "Chak de"?? Its like that!!

Lastly even the programmes like the Saras which have ENORMOUS potential if followed through properly are being pissed over. If the SARAS can be pushed to the market in the next 2 years, it has a fighting chance of capturing the entire regional market. The Saras has op costs in the range of 5 Rs/seat km. Which competitive prop do you know today in the 14-21 seat segment?

Heres what I would push for: replicate the model that ISRO used: they setup a commercial arm headed by IIM types to market their products. The ANTRIX corporation setup by ISRO has helped India corner a fair share of the space business although the success is mainly for the Remote Sensing so far! Secondly Research agencies should not get into production: ISRO is not producing rocket motors for their commercial launches: Godrej is making the Vikas rocket engines for example. This ensures that Scientists dont get bogged down in production issues.

In aviation, NAL+HAL+private partners like Tarneja should setup a commercial consortium on the lines of ANTRIX which would be tasked with marketing our products. The immediate products on offer would be the 14 seat Saras-100 and the 21 seat Saras-200 and their various variants: air ambulance, freighter etc.

A little known secret is that India has some pretty advanced stuff in the field of aerospace quality composites. a fair amount of this is already used in the agni's heat shield and int eh LCA. . Our babus obsession with secrecy means that little of is made commercially available.

Imagine if the 60-seat prop design of the 80's was revived, now built of composites instead of metal, dervied from the DRDO's hi-tech KAVACH project, and powered by PW127M engines from Pratt & Whitney and an LCD avionics suite copied from the ATR-600 series: it would be a world beater!

But when there are so many lobbies surrounding our ministers, ready with suitacases, domestic development will take a backseat!
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