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flyjet787
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Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 282
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 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: Air India,Star Alliance resume talks |
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Air India,Star Alliance resume talks
New Delhi, October 13, 2011
Airline grouping Star Alliance and Air India (AI) are back at the negotiating table. Representatives of the alliance met AI CMD Rohit Nandan on Wednesday - the first such meeting since August, when Star told AI that its three-and-a-half year courtship for membership was over.
"India and China are the biggest markets in the world," said captain Mohan Ranganathan, a Chennai-based aviation expert. "If India shuts the door on them, Star Alliance would be the loser. The government should be very firm with them this time."
Star had rejected AI on the ground that it had not met contract conditions agreed upon in late 2007. AI denied this.
The government too was reportedly upset with Star, and sources said the talks collapsed when the alliance insisted on inducting Jet Airways.
"AI had full backing of the government in this case," said a ministry official. "By rejecting it, Star had closed its options as far as India was concerned. They have realised this."
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Air-India-Star-Alliance-resume-talks/Article1-756987.aspx |
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iah87
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:41 am Post subject: |
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If this is true, this time AI should be able make it without any deadline extensions. Probably LH is desperate to fly the 380 to India.
Hope this happens this time, otherwise GoI may as well shut down AI. |
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Nimish
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Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Personally I think *A should agree to AI strictly based on the "minimum joining criteria" and not add on extra demands like 9W or 380. Those should be used as bargaining chips if AI does not meet some criteria and asks to be excluded.
Good luck to AI, if Rohit Nandan manages to pull this off, he'll have a very visible success metric for his tenure.
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sumantra
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Posts: 4685
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: |
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...the pressure seems to be telling on *A. Encouraging news for the troubled national carrier. Nandan seems to have started off well, with encouraging feelers both from the outside, as well as the inside (employees). This would be one of the most difficult jobs in the world. Good luck to him, and Air India!
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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Caliguy
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Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 723
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry this is a joke. What ever one might think of the business environment in India, India is India (just as China is). After the public scolding star did, they now return to talks? If this is star's strategy to get what they what, its either telling of the Indian business environment or star's inability to think of the consequences of their actions.
With the star debacle and KF's groundings, the "booming" indian aviation sector is in a sad state. |
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Caliguy wrote: | I'm sorry this is a joke. What ever one might think of the business environment in India, India is India (just as China is). After the public scolding star did, they now return to talks? If this is star's strategy to get what they what, its either telling of the Indian business environment or star's inability to think of the consequences of their actions.
With the star debacle and KF's groundings, the "booming" indian aviation sector is in a sad state. |
Regardless of KF's mess brought about by its idiotic owner, and the Star debacle (what else did you expect from AI??), the Indian aviation sector IS booming judging by the increase in passengers, and the growing success of the LCCs. Oh, and Jet is still doing pretty well, even given its plodding, wary style.
But I find it hard to believe that AI has any bargaining power left in its arsenal. If Star cowtows to AI, then it will just look foolish. |
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me111993
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If Star cowtows to AI, then it will just look foolish. |
they already are, if any of this is true.
And if this was sparked of by 9W not showing interest, then 9W is looking equally stupid.
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iah87
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: | | Caliguy wrote: | I'm sorry this is a joke. What ever one might think of the business environment in India, India is India (just as China is). After the public scolding star did, they now return to talks? If this is star's strategy to get what they what, its either telling of the Indian business environment or star's inability to think of the consequences of their actions.
With the star debacle and KF's groundings, the "booming" indian aviation sector is in a sad state. |
Regardless of KF's mess brought about by its idiotic owner, and the Star debacle (what else did you expect from AI??), the Indian aviation sector IS booming judging by the increase in passengers, and the growing success of the LCCs. Oh, and Jet is still doing pretty well, even given its plodding, wary style.
But I find it hard to believe that AI has any bargaining power left in its arsenal. If Star cowtows to AI, then it will just look foolish. |
Star knows that AI needs the alliance as much as it needs the Indian traffic. If AI is admitted, I am sure there will be a quid pro quo, you will see magically the India-Germany bilaterals revised to let LH fly 380. |
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avbuff
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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I once again repeat it is LH which needs AI in star than AI needing LH. The govt of India doesn't give 2 hoots about the aviation sector. Whoever stuffs their asses with $$$$$ they will swing decisions accordingly and say AI is blocking it.
This whole drama is nothing but a proxy war between LH and EK. If LH gets the A380 it will give some boost to their image. LH cannot live under "efficient airline from India" forever back when only AI, SQ, BA were the popular options. Their outdated B744s 1PC, baggage allowance are going against them contrary to what EK offers to their passengers. |
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sshank
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Posts: 377
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| avbuff wrote: | I once again repeat it is LH which needs AI in star than AI needing LH. The govt of India doesn't give 2 hoots about the aviation sector. Whoever stuffs their asses with $$$$$ they will swing decisions accordingly and say AI is blocking it.
This whole drama is nothing but a proxy war between LH and EK. If LH gets the A380 it will give some boost to their image. LH cannot live under "efficient airline from India" forever back when only AI, SQ, BA were the popular options. Their outdated B744s 1PC, baggage allowance are going against them contrary to what EK offers to their passengers. |
Av, if LH is allowed to bring the big bus to India, wouldn't EK be right behind? |
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avbuff
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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More than EK, it would be SQ, AF. As I mentioned earlier EK is not all that desperate to get the A380 to India. Remember A380 is meant for places where there are frequency/slot restrictions. EK has multiple B777s to India and that should be helpful to them.
Having said that the only EK flights that will get an A380 in India is, EK 500/501 & EK504/505 (BOMDXB) and EK 510/511 EK 512/513 (DELDXB). That's 4 daily flights at the max. High density A380s aren't coming to India. |
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Jaysit
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| avbuff wrote: | I once again repeat it is LH which needs AI in star than AI needing LH. The govt of India doesn't give 2 hoots about the aviation sector. Whoever stuffs their asses with $$$$$ they will swing decisions accordingly and say AI is blocking it.
This whole drama is nothing but a proxy war between LH and EK. If LH gets the A380 it will give some boost to their image. LH cannot live under "efficient airline from India" forever back when only AI, SQ, BA were the popular options. Their outdated B744s 1PC, baggage allowance are going against them contrary to what EK offers to their passengers. |
Well, their 744s are being equipped with PTVs, and the A346s and A333s have them already. And First on the 744s is being upgraded (and looks fantastic). As for baggage allowances, the A380 isn't going to change that any, is it?
I heard that they may put the new 748s to BOM. So you'll have a brand, spanking new aircraft on that route.
I can't speak for others, but I still like LH - the service and quality of food and wine in First is incredible, J is very pleasant and comfortable (I even like their angled flat seats), and Y aint bad. |
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texdravid
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Posts: 971
Location: GREAT STATE OF TEXAS
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: |
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I will have to agree with Jaysit on this one.
LH is overall very good. Good coverage of all metros in India, efficient service, and good product. Sure the first/business class needed work in say, 2005-9, the new product is very nice.
As for Star, why on earth are they "begging" AI to join again? Has anything changed at pitiful AI? Not at all, so I just don't understand the new talks.
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avbuff
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jaysit wrote: | | avbuff wrote: | I once again repeat it is LH which needs AI in star than AI needing LH. The govt of India doesn't give 2 hoots about the aviation sector. Whoever stuffs their asses with $$$$$ they will swing decisions accordingly and say AI is blocking it.
This whole drama is nothing but a proxy war between LH and EK. If LH gets the A380 it will give some boost to their image. LH cannot live under "efficient airline from India" forever back when only AI, SQ, BA were the popular options. Their outdated B744s 1PC, baggage allowance are going against them contrary to what EK offers to their passengers. |
Well, their 744s are being equipped with PTVs, and the A346s and A333s have them already. And First on the 744s is being upgraded (and looks fantastic). As for baggage allowances, the A380 isn't going to change that any, is it?
I heard that they may put the new 748s to BOM. So you'll have a brand, spanking new aircraft on that route.
I can't speak for others, but I still like LH - the service and quality of food and wine in First is incredible, J is very pleasant and comfortable (I even like their angled flat seats), and Y aint bad. |
Agreed and LH's loyal base is as strong as EK. But as your market is growing, the "new" traffic so to say, rely on EK, QR, TK, EY, etc. Trust me, $50 for a second bag is fine in the USA, but asking a middle class passenger to pay 2500 INR for a bag is suicidal. With this LH is mostly going to bank upon it's frequent members than attracting new customers flying their airline. |
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Nimish
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Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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avbuff - while the GoI may not give a rats a$$ about AI and it's future, AI itself would benefit massively from joining *A. I hope someone (even if a mid-level manager at AI) understands this and initiated this round of discussions.
Will *A gain - possibly, though I don't think they're looking to expand too much in India, I mean 1 additional port of call is insignificant in the bigger scheme of things. I think the combination of the feed AI can get from *A (if they play their cards right), and the increased stickiness *A can get in India - will make it a win-win for both.
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sumantra
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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The second bag fees may make *A members shift from LH to AI for some similar destinations, transferring to LH at some others. This will however, be a small dent in LH's access to AI's domestic network. AI on the other hand, stands a lot to gain from the global connections.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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G-BYGB
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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What baffels me the most is why 9W is not seizing the opportunity of joining an alliance? I assume it has to be Skyteam alliance as the other 2 are already in touch with IT and AI.
By far, 9W is the only carrier that has looked the best in International service and they dly to newer routes than AI or IT.
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DENMAA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| G-BYGB wrote: | I assume it has to be Skyteam alliance as the other 2 are already in touch with IT and AI.
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IT - really!!!! You better be joking.
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G-BYGB
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| DENMAA wrote: | | G-BYGB wrote: | I assume it has to be Skyteam alliance as the other 2 are already in touch with IT and AI.
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IT - really!!!! You better be joking. |
Well I don't know if One World, is considering to remove IT from joining their alliance, if their current financial status has anything to go by.Just like what Star Alliance has done to AI.
At the present stage IT can only spend more time in clearing their debt. And in all probability, we won't see GOI coming to their rescue by arm - twisting One World alliance.
That again leaves out only 9W and I can see a 3 way battle between *alliance, One World and Skyteam looking to pull them towards their side.
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iah87
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| sumantra wrote: | The second bag fees may make *A members shift from LH to AI for some similar destinations, transferring to LH at some others. This will however, be a small dent in LH's access to AI's domestic network. AI on the other hand, stands a lot to gain from the global connections.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
If AI and LH are in the same alliance and code share the routes, then either AI has to restrict to 1 bag (for US routes only) or LH has to allow 2 bags (for India routes). In the US, LH and UA/CO jointly started chargin for second bag to India. |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| iah87 wrote: | | sumantra wrote: | The second bag fees may make *A members shift from LH to AI for some similar destinations, transferring to LH at some others. This will however, be a small dent in LH's access to AI's domestic network. AI on the other hand, stands a lot to gain from the global connections.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
If AI and LH are in the same alliance and code share the routes, then either AI has to restrict to 1 bag (for US routes only) or LH has to allow 2 bags (for India routes). In the US, LH and UA/CO jointly started chargin for second bag to India. |
Alliance members can have different rules. In my experience, the rules of the carrier checking you in apply.
For example, UA/ CO still allow their elite members 3X32 kgs bags, though LH has reduced that to 2X23 kgs.
Traveling back home in August, I was ticketed on LH, and flying a LH coded flight (though it was operated by CO on EWR-FRA). Since I checked in at EWR with CO, I was allowed 3X32 kgs (I did have 3 bags, one more than LH allows), and LH happily delivered them to me in BLR.
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sumantra
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
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I fully concur with Nimish (thanks for explaining a personal experience in detail!). Some of my colleagues have chosen carriers specifically for this reason, for a route - I have had no personal experience in this matter, however. There are specific rules for in-lining also - Air India's in-line partners follow their rules in some cases, and AI's, in others. There are some detailed rules, on the AI webpage:
http://home.airindia.in/SBCMS/Webpages/International---Checked-Baggage.aspx?MID=27#
This is something I have experienced - and DL, UA and CO have respected the AI baggage rules - just as mentioned on the Air India website. DL, UA and CO are in-line partners as AI often books through connections on them, in the US - not code-share ones (yet, at least - UA/CO)
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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jasepl
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever armchair experts may be saying (both on and off this board), I, for one, refuse to believe this has anything to do with Lufthansa and their 380s.
It's akin to the claim that AI's P&L has a hole the size of Siberia only because of the planes Prafull made / let them buy.
No one in their right mind would go through this whole rigmarole just for that.
And really, our government officials need to grow up. There is a big chasm between what one might feel and what one should say in public. Knowing that difference and acting accordingly is the sign of a mature country. Throwing tantrums and going I told you so is not.
And we want a place at the high table. Ha.
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Nimish
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Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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From: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/ai-again-shows-interest-in-joining-star-alliance/articleshow/12170301.cms
AI again shows interest in joining Star Alliance
| Quote: | NEW DELHI: Air India and Star Alliance are resuming talks on the national carrier's membership into the global airline grouping, as Air India is now amenable to a second Indian carrier joining the alliance.
Latest by late March-early April, Air India's top management is slated to meet global airline grouping Star Alliance's new CEO Mark Schwab when he's in India to take talks forward on the membership of India's national carrier body.
The 27-carrier grouping Star Alliance, the biggest airline alliance had denied entry to Air India last year on grounds that it did not meet the minimum joining requirements (MJR) as stipulated in the contract signed in 2007. The Indian government was reportedly upset with Star for insisting on inducting Jet Airways into the alliance.
However the government's and Air India's stance has since changed. Air India CMD Rohit Nandan told ET that he had conveyed to Star Alliance recently its desire to pursue membership.
Nandan in an interview told the Economic Times said that after Air India reached out, the Alliance had responded positively. "Their new CEO will visit India by the end of this month or the next to discuss the membership. We fulfilled all the joining requirements last year. Membership of a second airline was the bone of contention then," he admitted.
An entry into Star Alliance is crucial to its turnaround. By being part of the Alliance would give AI an opportunity to widen its footprint. "Joining an alliance is really important for Air India as this will give the national carrier a better connectivity and access to more traffic," ex joint secretary at the civil aviation ministry Sanat Kaul said.
With the changed stance the national carrier has no problem if a second Indian airline (Jet Airways) joins Star Alliance, said Nandan, and added that Air India however wants the first mover advantage. "All we want is to be the first airline from India to join Star. Other Airlines could join after us," he added.
The Alliance now has a new CEO, who took over this January, from the former Jaan Brecht is also seen as a positive by Air India for making progress in the induction of Air India into the alliance.
Though there has not been much talk between the two parties since last August when Air India's membership was rejected, the airline officials have maintained that it should not be considered a closed chapter.
An AI official, requesting anonymity, said that since membership of the airline was "suspended" and not closed, there is a big possibility of a breakthrough.
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Good if true, though it's odd that the govt. so quickly buckled down to the "9W demand". Of course who knows what the real reasons for the failed first attempt really were, and what has changed in the interim!
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