Airliners-India

karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am Post subject:

Latest pictures
Copyright pictures

Relatives (L) and uniformed Air France employees stand outside the Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris during an ecumenical church service on June 3, 2009 for relatives and families of the passengers of Air France's flight 447 that vanished Monday over the Atlantic Ocean.

Paris Archbishop Andre Vingt-Trois, second right, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, third right, and French first lady Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, 4th right, leave the Notre-Dame cathedral following an ecumenical church service for relatives and families of the passengers of Air France's flight 447 that vanished Monday over the Atlantic ocean, Wednesday June 3, 2009 in Paris. The reason for the crash remains unclear, with fierce thunderstorms, lightning or a catastrophic combination of causes as possible theories.

French military personnel walk from a AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control Systems) aircraft at the Dakar French air base, June 3, 2009, after returning from search mission to locate an Air France plane that went missing on Sunday night. French officials said on Wednesday they may never discover why an Air France aircraft crashed into the Atlantic killing 228 people and cautioned they might not even find the plane's black boxes on the ocean floor.
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karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:45 am Post subject:

from
TIMES UK

June 3, 2009
On Monday, Air France and government ministers said the aircraft had been struck by lightning and they ruled out terrorism but later retracted the remarks. Sabotage was not being ruled out, they said today.

Air France said the Buenos Aires bomb threat was of the kind that airlines receive episodically. Last month an Air France Airbus flying from Paris to Marrakech was diverted to Nantes after an anonymous warning call. Bomb threats to airline flights in the West have been reported half a dozen times this year.

Investigators are analysing a stream of data which was sent automatically via satellite from the stricken aircraft to the Air France operations centre over a three-minute period that ended with its crash, Mr Arslanian said. According to leaks from Air France the initial messages reported disconnection of the automatic pilot and severe anomalies in the fight parameters. Some pilots interpreted this as a symptom of icing on the probes that report airspeed and other data. The last message reported the aircraft entering a high-speed dive.

“The A330 is a beautiful aircraft but it has shown, again and again, very susceptible to probes icing, with the de-icing system on automatic,” an airline pilot wrote on one internet forum. “This leads to very rapidly presenting the crew with a very lame aircraft to say the least.” Some experts said icing could have been the consequence of the electrical power failure which was also reported by the airliner.
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starvmgopal · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:07 am Post subject:

The Aircraft that crashed was in BLR 2 times last week...see article...they seem to have rectified their old statement about the aircraft being grounded in March...that was a different one...but it was here in BLR on 26 and 28 May

confirmed by BIAL

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Crashed-plane-was-in-Bangalore-twice-last-week/470314
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Aseem · Member Joined: 15 Dec 2006 Posts: 1823 Location: YYZ

Kabir · Member Joined: 24 Oct 2008 Posts: 322 Location: DEL

On this issue i just heard the most lame theory.... the A332 involved in a collision with a drug trafficking plane. Confused

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India Correspondent
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HAWK21M · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:38 am Post subject:

karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject:

http://www.uindy.edu/news/?p=1700
Circumstances point to terrorism in Air France crash, UIndy expert says

Posted: June 3rd, 2009

As speculation continues over the crash of an Air France jetliner on a transatlantic flight, a University of Indianapolis expert says recent events point to the possibility of terrorism.

Although there have been no claims of responsibility or specific indications of sabotage, the disappearance of a large airliner without warning is extremely rare, and investigators say no potential causes have been ruled out. Today, aviation authorities said another Air France flight from Buenos Aires to Paris was grounded temporarily May 27 because of a telephoned bomb threat.
The circumstantial evidence for terrorism includes a history of Islamic extremism in and around Brazil, where the flight originated, as well as the recent opening of a French military base on the Arabian Peninsula, according to Douglas Woodwell, assistant professor of international relations at UIndy.

“During the past week, the French government announced the landmark opening of a military base in Dubai, the first permanent overseas military base the French have opened since they decolonized in the early 1960s,” Woodwell says. “The fact that the United States had stationed troops on the Arabian Peninsula during and after the Gulf War was probably the most important concrete factor motivating Al Qaeda in its subsequent attacks on the United States, including 9/11. The French basing agreement was announced on January 15, which is sufficient time for Al Qaeda sympathizers to organize a response.”
Who are the Al Qaeda sympathizers in South America? According to Woodwell, the so-called Tri-border region where Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay meet is home to a large Muslim population with a history of militancy.
“Terrorists from this area are believed to have launched attacks against the Israeli Embassy and a Jewish community center in Argentina in the early ‘90s, killing hundreds of people,” he says. “Radical groups recruiting amid this often-alienated Muslim diaspora would have no problem finding young men or women willing to bring down an airliner.”
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karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject:

Copyright pictures

A sign marks Air France's promontory at Fernando de Noronha Island in northeastern Brazil, where the French used to have a radio base to support commercial aviation, 650 km from where debris of Air France flight 447 was spotted in the Atlantic Ocean, on June 3, 2009. Spotter aircraft from the United States and France on Wednesday joined Brazilian air force planes to make visual sweeps for wreckage of Air France flight 447 which crashed into the Atlantic Ocean on June 1 with 228 people on board while en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris. An inquiry has begun into the cause of Monday's disaster, but the scattered and sunken remains of the jet will have to be recovered before the hundreds of grieving relatives across the world can expect any answers.
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karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject:

More debris from Air France jet found in mid-Atlantic

Thursday, June 4, 2009
The Associated Press

FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil – Military planes found more debris from an Air France jet on Wednesday as the first navy ship arrived at the scene in the mid-Atlantic. But high seas and heavy winds slowed the recovery effort and delayed the arrival of crucial deep-water submersibles.

Rescuers have still found no signs of life from the plane, which was carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, said an air force spokesman, Col. Jorge Amaral.

Flight 447 disappeared minutes after flying into a dangerous band of storms Sunday night, but what caused its electrical systems and cabin pressure to fail remains a mystery. The "black box" cockpit recorders could be miles below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean.

If they can't be recovered, investigators will have to focus on maintenance records and a burst of messages sent by the plane just before it disappeared. Officials have released some details of these messages, but a more complete chronology was published Wednesday by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, citing an unidentified Air France source.

Air France and Brazilian military officials refused to confirm the report. But if accurate, it suggests that Flight 447 may have broken up thousands of feet in the air as it passed through a violent storm, experts said.

Brazil's air force said earlier that the last message came at 11:14 p.m., indicating loss of air pressure and electrical failure. The newspaper said this could mean sudden de-pressurization or that the plane was already plunging into the ocean.

The original debris was found 400 miles northeast of the Fernando de Noronha islands off Brazil's northern coast. Brazil was leading the search, while France took charge of the crash investigation.

Brazilian divers were expected to arrive today, but if the black boxes are at the bottom of the sea, their recovery will have to wait for the arrival early next week of a French research ship with remotely controlled submersibles that can explore as deeply as 19,600 feet.

The Associated Press
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karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject:

Flight detail
A Swedish family split up and took two separate planes to use frequent flier miles for free seats.

Dad Fernando Shnabl and daughter Celine, three, made it to Paris - where they waited in vain for the later flight carrying mum Christine, 34, and son Philippe, five.
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The_Goat · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject:

karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject:

From BILDE, GERMANY

New details have been released about the dramatic final moments of doomed Air France flight AF447, which disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean three days ago.

Experts have reconstructed the last minutes of the Airbus A330 - which was en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris when it vanished - using messages sent by the plane’s computer, according to Brazilian newspaper ‘O Estado de S. Paulo’.

The most notable conclusion from the messages is that in the final moments, all the plane's important systems failed.

And at 2.14am GMT, Air France HQ received the last communication: THE CABIN PRESSURE IS DROPPING!

Here is what happened:

• At about 2am GMT, the pilot of the Airbus sent a manual signal. The plane was flying through a storm with black, electrically-charged clouds and strong winds and lightning. It battled against winds of around 160kmh.

• Quoting Air France information, Hamburg aviation expert Heinrich Großbongardt reported: “There was then for two to three minutes a flood of error messages: The navigation system failed, then display screens went blank.”

• The computer system was moved to an alternative energy supply.

• In the plane, an alarm was sounded. Passengers will probably have been sitting in the dark, expecting the worst.

• At 2.13am GMT, all important controls failed. Speed, height and direction could no longer be controlled.

• At 2.14am, the cabin pressure dropped.

Then the plane, with 228 people on board, fell into the Atlantic Ocean.

Brazilian and French authorities did not want to comment on the report yesterday.

Search parties have found debris in the Atlantic which is believed to be from the plane. Several different pieces were found about 100km apart, reportedly because the Airbus fell from such a great height.

Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian Secretary of Defense, said an explosion is unlikely as the cause of the crash.

Oil slicks found on the water prove that there was neither a fire nor an explosion, he told a press conference.

The search for the plane's black box is still continuing in the Atlantic, although hope of finding it is slim.

***

Copyright pictures

Solving the mystery of Air France flight AF447
Mini-sub and robot to help search Atlantic for black box
A robot mini-submarine called 'Victor 6000' is helping the search for the missing Air France plane in the Atlantic Ocean.

Deep-diving robots and mini-submarines will help the search for the black box of Air France flight AF477 in the Atlantic Ocean - but hope of finding it are still slim.

With no surviving eyewitnesses and or emergency call from the pilot, the black box is the only way to discover exactly what happened to the Airbus A330 and its victims as it disappeared whilst en route from Paris to Rio de Janeiro.

But experts doubt if the box can ever be recovered: “A black box has never been found so deep underwater,” explained a spokeswoman for the French rescue service BEA.

Currents and the water temperature will also make the search more difficult.

The Atlantic is around 4,700 metres deep in the area where the plane is believed to have come down, which will make it hard for search teams to pick up the ultra sound signal being emitted by the device.

Plane crash investigator George Blau told BILD that if the box was buried by sand or mud then the signal would only travel a few metres. An underwater robot would have to be very close to pick it up.

The good news is that the black box can survive for up to 30 days underwater and in temperatures of up to 1,100 degrees.

Several vessels are already on their way to the area, 1,000 km off the Brazilian coastline, to try and help solve the mystery.

They include the specially-equipped French ship ‘Pourquoi Pas’. The vessel has a mini submarine and a four-ton underwater robot on board.

The robot, called ‘Victor 6000’, has eight cameras, eight searchlights and two arms controlled by pilots on board the ship with a joystick.

A mini submarine ‘Nautile’ can take three men down to a depth of 6,000 metres.
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karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject:

Latest
The French accident investigation team, the BEA, has reached out to its U.S. counterparts for assistance in trying to sort out what happened to Air France flight 447. Bill English will serve as the designated senior air safety investigator assigned to assist the BEA, says National Transport Safety Board’s acting chairman Mark V. Rosenker.

***

Brazil's Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said debris discovered so far was spread over a wide area, with some 230 kilometers (140 miles) separating pieces of wreckage they have spotted. The overall zone is roughly 400 miles (640 kilometers) northeast of the Fernando de Noronha islands off Brazil's northern coast, where the ocean floor drops as low as 22,950 feet (7,000 meters) below sea level.

The floating debris includes a 23-foot (seven-meter) chunk of plane, but pilots have spotted no signs of survivors, Brazilian Air Force spokesman Col. Jorge Amaral said.
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Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2295

The circumstances and visible wreckage profile remind me a lot of the Adam Air crash from a few years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air_Flight_574#Discovery_of_wreckage

In that instance, very little wreckage was spotted and no bodies were found, indicating that the aircraft (unlike, say, TW800 or AI182) did not explode or disintegrate in mid-air, but did so when it slammed into the surface of the ocean.

Incidentally, when an aircraft crashes into the ocean, its a bit like hitting a concrete wall. SR103 and MS990 both disintegrated into millions of tiny pieces. The only reason we saw more floating wreckage in both those cases was because (a) the depth of the ocean was only about 80 feet or so, resulting in greater buoyancy; and (b) the relative placidity of coastal North Atlantic waters in the summer months near the NE US Coast.

karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject:

TIMES UK

Air France Flight 447 'may have stalled after pilot error'
(Reuters)
Airbus is to send new advice to operators of its A330 jets
June 4, 2009
Charles Bremner, Paris
The Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic killing 228 may have stalled after pilots slowed down too much as they encountered turbulence, new information suggests.

Airbus is to send advice on flying in storms to operators of its A330 jets, Le Monde reported today. It would remind crews of the need to maintain adequate thrust from the engines and the correct attitude, or angle of flight, when entering heavy turbulence.

Pilots slow down aircraft when entering stormy zones of the type encountered by Air France Flight 447 early on Monday as it was flying from Rio to Paris. The fact that the manufacturer of the aircraft is issuing new advice indicates that investigators have evidence that the aircraft slowed down too much, causing a high-altitude aerodynamic stall. This would explain why the aircraft apparently broke up at altitude over the Atlantic.

Airbus declined to comment on the report. A company official said: "Each time there is an accident, it is imperative for the manufacturer to inform all operators of the type of aircraft concerned of any specific procedures to put in place or any checks to carry out."

Jean Serrat, a retired airline pilot, told Agence-France Presse: "If the BEA [accident investigation bureau] is making a recommendation so early, it is because they know very well what happened. If they know what happened, they have a duty to make a recommendation, for safety reasons ... The first thing you do when you fly into turbulence is to reduce speed to counter its effects. If you reduce speed too much you stall."

Although the flight recorders lie about 12,000ft below the ocean surface, the BEA has data on the last four minutes of Flight 447, transmitted automatically by satellite to Air France's base at Paris Charles de Gaulle airport.

A stall, in which the wings lose lift and the aircraft becomes uncontrollable, would be consistent with the sequence of events that have leaked to the media from the Air France data. According to this, the first anomaly was the disconnection of the automatic pilot and computerised flight controls. This means that the pilots were hand-flying the aircraft.

It is not known whether Captain Marc Dubois, 58, was at the controls or just his two co-pilots, who were in their 30s.

A stall at 35,000ft – the altitude at which Flight 447 was cruising – is hard to recover from in still air. In the heart of a furious tropical storm at night, it could be near impossible. High-altitude stalls claimed several aircraft in the early days of jet aircraft.

Speculation over the fate of Flight 447 continued to rage as ships began trawling the crash area, spread over a 200-mile stretch. Debris, including airliner seats, has been identified from the air, about 800 miles off the Brazil coast. No bodies have been spotted

Nelson Jobim, Brazil's Defence Mminister, said that a 12-mile-long slick of fuel had been found under the planned route of the Airbus. This meant it was improbable that there had been a fire or explosion, because the jet fuel would have ignited, he said.French experts dismissed this theory, noting that an explosion could fracture the fuselage and cause the break-up of an aircraft without igniting the fuel, which is mainly carried in the wings.
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Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2295

There's been some speculation that the A330-200 has a special vulnerability to ice formation around pitot tubes causing unreliable speed indications at high altitude. If the flight deck crew slowed the aircraft in response to the black cloud formations ahead, the aircraft may have gone into a stall.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2009/06/air-france-airbus-a330-acciden.html

karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject:

OBSERVER UK
Air France pilots battled for 15 minutes to save doomed flight AF 447
Air France pilots battled for up to 15 minutes to save the doomed flight that went missing over the Atlantic this week, electronic messages emitted by the aircraft have revealed.

By Henry Samuel in Paris
04 Jun 2009

Details have emerged of the moments leading up to the disappearance of flight AF 447 with 228 people on-board, with error messages reportedly suggesting the plane was flying too slowly and that two key computers malfunctioned.

Flight data messages provided by an Air France source show the precise chronology of events of flight AF 447 before it plummeted into the sea 400 miles off Brazil on Monday.

These indicate that the pilot reported hitting tropical turbulence at 3am (BST), shortly before reaching Senegalese airspace. It said the plane had passed through tall, dense cumulonimbus thunderclouds.

At this stage, according to a source close to the investigation cited by Le Monde, the Airbus A330-200's speed was "erroneous" - either too fast or too slow. Each plane has an optimal speed when passing through difficult weather conditions, which for unknown reasons, had not been reached by flight AF 447.

Airbus is expected to issue recommendations today to all operators of the A330 model to maintain appropriate thrust levels to steady the plane's flight path in storms.

At 3.10am, the messages show the pilot was presented with a series of major failures over a four-minute period before catastrophe struck, according to automatic data signals cited by the Sao Paulo newspaper, le Jornal da Tarde.

At this time, the automatic pilot was disconnected – either by the pilot or by the plane's inbuilt security system, which flips to manual after detecting a serious error.

It is unclear whether the pilot wanted to manually change course to avoid a dangerous cloud zone – an extremely difficult manoeuvre at such high altitude.

At the same moment, another message indicates that the "fly-by-wire" electronic flight system which controls the wing and tail flaps shifted to "alternative law" – an emergency backup system engaged after multiple electricity failures. This system enables the plane to continue functioning on minimum energy but reduces flight stability. An alarm would have sounded to alert the cabin crew to this.

Two minutes later, another message indicates that two essential computers providing vital information on altitude, speed and flight direction ceased functioning correctly.

Two new messages at 3.13am report electricity breakdowns in the principal and auxiliary flight computers.

At 3.14am, a final message reads "cabin in vertical speed", suggesting a sudden loss of cabin pressure, either the cause or the consequence of the plane breaking up in mid-air.

Despite the precise details, sources close to the investigation contested the chronology and denied that the two computers providing altitude, speed and directional data malfunctioned.

The suggestion that the pilot gradually lost control of the plane appears to counter reports that the plane exploded in mid-air.

These were lent more weight today after a Spanish pilot in the vicinity at the time reported seeing an "intense white flash".

"Suddenly we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, followed by a downward, vertical trajectory which broke up into six segments," the chief pilot of an Air Comet plane from Lima to Madrid told the Spanish newspaper, El Mundo. He has reported his observations to investigators.

Some experts have supported the theory that the plane exploded, given the wide area where debris has been found.

However, Brazil's defence minister, Nelson Jobim, said an explosion was "improbable" given the 13-mile trail of kerosine spotted on the sea. "If we have fuel slicks, it's because it didn't burn," he said.

Paul-Louis Arslanian, the head of the French air accident bureau in charge of the investigation, also said there were other possible reasons for wide debris area, such as high winds and choppy seas.

Yesterday he warned against hasty "speculation" and said that the search would take time.

Four naval vessels and a tanker are in the area around 400 miles off Brazil's northeastern coast. Some 11 spotter planes are searching for more debris, after finding a seat and a 23-foot metal object thought to be part of the fuselage. A French mini-submarine will arrive in the zone next week.
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karatecatman · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject:

www.theage.com.au/world/pilot-saw-white-light-where-air-france-flight-lost-20090604-bx23.html
Pilot saw 'white light' where Air France flight lost
June 5, 2009

Military planes and ships locate more debris from an Air France jet, however high seas and heavy winds are slowing the recovery effort.
The captain of a Spanish airliner claims to have seen "an intense flash of white light" in the area where Air France Flight 447 was lost, the El Mundo newspaper said today.

The co-pilot and a passenger on the Air Comet flight from Lima to Lisbon also saw the light, it said, adding that a written report from the captain has been sent on to Air France, Airbus and the Spanish civil aviation authority.

"Suddenly, we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, which followed a descending and vertical trajectory and which broke up into six segments," the unidentified captain wrote.

The Air Comet flight's position at the time was at seven degrees north latitude and 49 degrees west longitude, whereas the Air France flight was estimated to be on the equator and 30 degrees west longitude, El Mundo said.

"Given the coincidence of time and place, I bring to your attention these elements so that they may be, possibly, useful in casting a light on the facts," the captain wrote.

The Air France jet went down on Monday during a flight from Rio to Paris with 228 people on board.

Air Comet is a Madrid-based airliner that mainly flies long-haul routes between Spain and Latin America.
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karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:40 am Post subject:

karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:51 am Post subject:

Copyright pictures

US Navy men walk on a military base after search operations for the missing Air France Flight 447 in Natal, Brazil, Thursday, June 4, 2009. A Brazilian helicopter crew recovered the first wreckage from Air France jet on Thursday, pulling a cargo pallet from the sea. No sign of human remains have been spotted, and Air France has told families that the jetliner broke apart, killing all 228 people on board.

Ground crew unload a refrigerated truck from a Brazilian Air Force C-105 Aircraft at Fernando de Noronha Island's Airport on June 4, 2009. Brazilian navy ships began Thursday recovering debris from an Air France jet that came down in the Atlantic early this week, a Brazilian air force official said.

Friends, relatives and authorities attend a mass to pay tribute for the victims of the ill-fated Air France flight 447 at the Candelaria Cathedral on June 4, 2009 in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Conflicting clues to the cause of the loss of an Air France jet and the 228 people on board emerged on Thursday, deepening the mystery as the hunt for evidence intensified today. A Spanish pilot flying in the same area as the Rio-Paris flight when it plunged into the Atlantic spoke of an "intense flash", while a Brazilian minister appeared to rule out a mid-air explosion.
Copyright pictures
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shivendrashukla · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:09 am Post subject:

OK. Now a twist in the story :
Brazil mistakes sea 'trash' for plane crash debris

Devesh · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:36 am Post subject:

Kabir · Member Joined: 24 Oct 2008 Posts: 322 Location: DEL

Seems like nothing from AF found yet. Back to square one.
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Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 2295

Boeing7xx · Member Joined: 23 Dec 2006 Posts: 408 Location: WSSS

Its just sad the amount of speculation that is floating around from 'experts' far and wide. Well when your employer declares a +ve lightning strike as the cause of the crash without even having found the debris it is only goes to show how much of a tamasha this has become.

Its just sad.

flightgearpilot · Member Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 547 Location: BLR

This episode is personally very disturbing to me. I flew CDG-BLR on 25th May (or was it 26th morning)? I'm not sure whether I travelled in the same plane. But there was a large group of Brazilians coming to Bangalore occupying the seats around me that day. In fact, the person next to me was quite chatty and taught me a bit of Portugese as well.

RIP to all those in that ill-fated plane. Sad

Kabir · Member Joined: 24 Oct 2008 Posts: 322 Location: DEL

They are saying that the debris spotted is just 'waste' not originating from the ill-fated aircraft.

Also they have noted that the spotted oil slick also did not originate from the aircraft.
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karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:27 pm Post subject:

Could it now mean that the aircraft went down in major pieces? Large chunks now resting on the ocean floor?
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flightgearpilot · Member Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 547 Location: BLR

Surprising that aircrafts aren't fitted with flares that can emanate coloured gases or liquids on contact with water. Or even emanate radio signals when in contact with water. It would have made the search operation so much easier.

karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject:

Copyright pictures

Handout picture released June 4, 2009 by the Brazilian Air Force Press Office of a wooden pallet measuring 1.2 x 0.80 x 0.15m floating on the Atlantic Ocean in the area where presumably disappeared the Air France Airbus 330, flight 447 plane last June 1st with 228 passengers on board. Red-faced Brazilian officials said late Thursday debris they thought was from an Air France crash in the Atlantic was in fact sea "trash," adding to the uncertainties surrounding the jet tragedy. Items, including a cargo pallet and two buoys, pulled from the ocean early Thursday actually came from another source, most certainly a ship, authorities said.
Copyright pictures
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karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject:

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-brazil-crash5-2009jun05,0,6741218.story
Air France jet's flight-control system under scrutiny
Automated messages before the crash point to a failure of the system that flies the plane most of the time, experts say. Weather looks like less of a factor.
By Ralph Vartabedian
June 5, 2009

A sophisticated flight-control system that relies on electronic instruments and computers came under growing scrutiny Thursday as investigators tried to unravel the mysterious crash of an Air France Airbus 330 into the Atlantic.

A series of messages sent automatically by the jet moments before it plunged into the ocean late Sunday with 228 passengers and crew members aboard has raised speculation that the crash might have involved a malfunction of the automated system that flies the plane most of the time.

One of the messages reported that one of the plane's navigational control units had failed and that, almost simultaneously, the autopilot system had disengaged.

The sequence of events forced the crew of Flight 447 to fly the jet manually, a difficult task on an Airbus traveling at high altitude near its maximum speed, aviation experts said. Any significant change in airspeed could have caused the plane to lose lift or stability, both potentially deadly conditions.

Meanwhile, new analysis of the weather in the vicinity at the time of the crash appears to cast doubt on earlier reports that the plane encountered severe thunderstorms, lightning and wind gusts. Though there were storms, they were almost certainly less intense than those sometimes encountered above the United States, and lightning was at least 150 miles away, said Greg Forbes, severe-weather expert for the Weather Channel.

Forbes said an examination of weather data for Sunday, including satellite images, indicated updrafts of perhaps 20 mph, far from the initial reports of 100 mph.

"I wouldn't expect it to be enough to break apart the plane," Forbes said.

Though experts generally agreed Thursday that weather alone did not explain the crash, USC aviation safety expert Michael Barr said the investigation was still wide open.

"You can never disregard any possibility until you can prove what happened," Barr said. "The key here is to determine what the crew could have done after the initial event. Or was there nothing they could have done and they were just along for the ride?"

Air France executives said the plane had sent out a series of messages indicating technical failures, confirming news reports in Brazil and data that U.S. aviation experts had already gained access to.

A series of serious electronic breakdowns occurred on the Airbus over a four-minute period before the jet plunged into the sea, said Robert Ditchey, an aeronautical engineer, pilot and former airline executive.

The sequence started with an autopilot failure and a loss of the air data inertial reference unit, a system of gyroscopes and electronics that provides information on speed, direction and position. That system has been involved in two previous incidents that caused Airbus jetliners to plunge out of control, though the pilots were able to recover.

The automated messages then indicate that a fault occurred in one of the computers for the major control surfaces on the rear of the plane. Such a failure would have compounded the problems, particularly if the pilots were flying through even moderate turbulence.

The last message indicates that multiple failures were occurring, including pressurization of the cabin. Such a message would have reflected either a loss of the plane's pressurization equipment or a breach of the fuselage, resulting in rapid decompression.

All of these issues would have made the plane difficult to control.

When cruising at high altitude, a plane must fly within a fairly small window of speed, said Robert Breiling, an aviation safety expert in Florida. If speed drops even slightly, the plane can lose lift. If the speed is too high, it causes instability over the control surfaces.

"Flying a big jetliner at high altitude without autopilot, you have your hands full," Breiling said.

Ditchey said the Airbus software would have left the crew with a very small margin of error, where even minor buffeting could have boosted the risk of losing control.

"As they got into a degraded regime, they probably got into a bigger and bigger pickle," Ditchey said.

ralph.vartabedian @latimes.com
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karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject:

www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iOegnahAFcEgwJZ4WKGkVz9Dgq5wD98K7AT03
Brazil: Crash investigation looks at sensors
By BRADLEY BROOKS and JOAN LOWY

June 5, 2009

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) — Investigators trying to determine why Air France Flight 447 broke apart in a violent storm over the Atlantic are looking at the possibility that speed sensors — or an external instrument key to collecting speed data — failed in unusual weather, two aviation industry officials said Thursday.

Brazil's Navy and Air Force, meanwhile, issued statements saying that despite earlier reports by the military, no wreckage had been recovered from the Airbus A330, which went down off the country's northeastern coast, killing all 228 people aboard. It is the world's worst aviation disaster since 2001.

Officials with knowledge of the investigation and independent analysts all stressed they don't know why a plane that seemed to be flying normally crashed just minutes after the pilot messaged that he was entering an area of extremely dangerous storms.

They will have little to go on until they recover the plane's "black box" flight data and voice recorders, now likely on the ocean floor miles (kilometers) beneath the surface.

Other hypotheses — even terrorism — haven't been ruled out, though there are no signs of a bomb. Officials have said a jet fuel slick on the ocean's surface suggests there was no explosion.

Two officials told The Associated Press that investigators are looking at the possibility an external probe that measures air pressure may have iced over. The probe feeds data used to calculate air speed and altitude to onboard computers. Another possibility is that sensors inside the aircraft reading the data malfunctioned.

If the instruments were not reporting accurate information, the jet could have been traveling too fast or too slow as it entered turbulence from towering bands of thunderstorms, according to the officials.

"There is increasing attention being paid to the external probes and the possibility they iced over in the unusual atmospheric conditions experienced by the Air France flight," one of the industry officials explained to the AP, speaking on condition of anonymity because he isn't authorized to discuss the investigation publicly.

Meteorologists said the Air France jet entered an unusual storm with 100 mph updrafts that acted as a vacuum, sucking water up from the ocean. The incredibly moist air rushed up to the plane's high altitude, where it quickly froze in minus-40 degree temperatures. The updrafts also would have created dangerous turbulence.

The jetliner's computer systems ultimately failed, and the plane broke apart likely in midair as it crashed into the Atlantic on a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris Sunday night.

Independent aviation experts said it is plausible that a problem with the external probe — called a "pitot tube" — or sensors that analyze data collected by the tube could have contributed to the disaster.

The tubes have heating systems to prevent icing. But if those systems somehow malfunctioned, the tubes could quickly freeze at high altitude in storm conditions, said the other industry official, who also was not authorized to discuss the investigation.

Other experts outside the investigation said it is more likely that the sensors reading information from the tubes failed.

"When you have multiple system failures, sensors are one of the first things you want to look at," said John Cox, a Washington-based aviation safety consultant and former crash investigator for the Air Line Pilots Association.

Jetliners need to be flying at just the right speed when encountering violent weather, experts say — too fast and they run the risk of breaking apart. Too slow, and they could lose control.

"It's critical when dealing with these conditions of turbulence to maintain an appropriate speed to maintain control of the aircraft, while at the same time not over-stressing the aircraft," said Bill Voss, president and CEO of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va.

France's accident investigation agency has established that the series of automatic messages gave conflicting signals about the plane's speed, and that the flight path went through dangerously stormy weather. The agency warned against any "hasty interpretation or speculation" after the French newspaper Le Monde reported, without naming sources, that the Air France plane was flying at the wrong speed.

Two buoys — standard emergency equipment on planes — were spotted Thursday in the Atlantic Ocean about 340 miles (550 kilometers) northeast of Brazil's northern Fernando de Noronha islands by a helicopter crew, which was working off a Brazilian navy ship.

Among other debris spotted Wednesday and Thursday were a 23-foot (seven-meter) chunk of plane, an airline seat and several large brown and yellow pieces that probably came from inside the plane, military officials said.

Confusion broke out after the Air Force announced Thursday afternoon that a helicopter plucked an airplane cargo pallet from the sea that came the Air France flight, but then said six hours later that it was not from the Airbus.

The pallet was made of wood, and the plane was not carrying wooden pallets, Brazilian Air Force Gen. Ramon Cardoso told reporters. He did not say where the pallet might have come from.

"So far, nothing from the plane has been recovered," Cardoso said.

Air France's CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon told family members at a private meeting that the plane disintegrated, either in the air or when it slammed into the ocean, and there were no survivors, according to Guillaume Denoix de Saint-Marc, a grief counselor who was asked by Paris prosecutors to help counsel relatives.

More than 500 people packed the historic Candelaria church in the center of Rio de Janeiro Thursday for a Mass for the victims.

With the crucial flight recorders still missing, investigators were relying heavily on the plane's automated messages to help reconstruct what happened as the jet flew through thunderstorms.

The last message from the pilot was a manual signal at 11 p.m. local time Sunday saying he was flying through an area of black, electrically charged cumulonimbus clouds that come with violent winds and lightning.

At 11:10 p.m., a cascade of problems began: the autopilot had disengaged, a key computer system switched to alternative power, and controls needed to keep the plane stable had been damaged. An alarm sounded indicating the deterioration of flight systems. Then, systems for monitoring air speed, altitude and direction failed. Controls over the main flight computer and wing spoilers failed as well. At 11:14 p.m., a final automatic message signaled loss of cabin pressure and complete electrical failure as the plane was breaking apart.

The pilot of a Spanish airliner flying nearby at the time reported seeing a bright flash of white light plunging to the ocean, said Angel del Rio, spokesman for the Spanish airline Air Comet.

The pilot of the Spanish plane, en route from Lima, Peru to Madrid, said he heard no emergency calls.

France's defense minister and the Pentagon have said there were no signs that terrorism was involved.

"We have no evidence, we have no proof, we don't know," French Foreign Minister Bernard Kochner said after he was asked about the possibility of a bomb. "Is it possible? I mean to look at an explosion? Yes it is. It is one of the hypotheses."

Lowy reported from Washington. Associated Press writers Alan Clendenning and Stan Lehman in Sao Paulo; Marco Sibaja in Brasilia; Slobodan Lekic in Brussels; Daniel Woolls in Madrid; and Greg Keller, Angela Charlton and Emma Vandore in Paris also contributed to this report.
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karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject:

NEW YORK TIMES

Source: Ministry of Defence, Brazil
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एअर इंडिया AIR INDIA Fly DVD --- Desh VIDESH Desh

Kabir · Member Joined: 24 Oct 2008 Posts: 322 Location: DEL

the_drifter · Member Joined: 30 May 2009 Posts: 9

Did they ever find any debris? Reports appear to suggest that they have not confirmed any debris from A330. This accident seems to be heading to a mystery..

Kabir · Member Joined: 24 Oct 2008 Posts: 322 Location: DEL

no debris related to the 330.
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Kabir
India Correspondent
Airliner World

karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject:

In the hunt for the Air France flight
Copyright pictures

FILE - In this image dated April 2, 2008, released by French marine institute Ifremer, on Friday June 5, 2009, showing the manned submarine Nautileat an undisclosed location. The French research vessel The Pourquoi Pas, carrying search submarines, is heading from the Azores and will be in the search zone for the missing Air France plane by June 12. France's transportation minister Dominique Bussereau said Friday that French forces have found no signs of the Airbus A330 airplane that vanished over the Atlantic and urged "extreme prudence" about suspected debris taken from the ocean.

In this Aug. 22, 2006 image released Friday June 5, 2009 by French marine institute Ifremer, the French sea research vessel, The Pourquoi Pas, is seen at an undisclosed location. The Pourquoi Pas, carrying manned and unmanned submarines, is heading from the Azores and will be in the search zone of the missing AF 447 Air France plane by June 12.

Two planes equipped with an 'airborne warning and control system' (Awacs) radar are pictured on June 5, 2009 at the French Air Base in Dakar. The means to find the wreckage of the Air France Airbus A330 from France's Air Base in Dakar were "reinforced" today with the addition of the two planes. The Airbus A330 was carrying 228 people -- most of them French or Brazilian -- when it came down early on June 1, four hours into its 11-hour voyage from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.
Copyright pictures
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एअर इंडिया AIR INDIA Fly DVD --- Desh VIDESH Desh

karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject:

Air France has now renumbered the flight on the same route as AF 445/446.
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एअर इंडिया AIR INDIA Fly DVD --- Desh VIDESH Desh

karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8082025.stm
Deep-sea challenge of Air France debris
The remains of the Air France jet which went missing over the Atlantic on Monday are in very deep water, making the job of finding them extremely difficult, not to mention any attempt to salvage the aircraft and the bodies of those who were on board.

A French government minister has said the black box flight recorders are believed to be at a depth of between 3,660m (12,000 ft) and 3,700m. At this depth, pressure is immense and there is no daylight.

Any search to locate the flight recorders and any plane wreckage will involve a number of technologies. Below we outline the main methods of salvaging wrecks, from divers to the latest deep sea exploratory vehicles.

Scuba diver: US Navy divers were used to retrieve bodies and light debris from TWA flight 800 which crashed into the Atlantic off New York in 1996. The plane was discovered at a depth of 40m, within the maximum operating depth for divers which is typically 50m.

Bathymetric survey: This is a sonar device placed beneath a ship that would sail in a designated pattern over an area to map the seabed. It "looks" straight down to produce a 3-D map of the seabed but typically operate up to a depth of 1,000m.

Pinger Locator System: This is a specialised listening device that is towed at a depth of up to 4,000m by a ship. The device listens out for the sound of the pinger which is part of the flight recorder. It is activated on contact with sea water and every commercial aircraft carries one. It will emit a signal for up to 30 days.

Side Scan Sonar: Once the pinger is located, a more detailed survey of the area can be carried out. The SSS is a cigar-shaped tube that is towed by a ship to map the seabed in a designated pattern. "You attach it to a cable and you mow the lawn," says Tim Janaitis, Director of Business Development at Phoenix International, a specialist marine salvage company. Mr Janaitis said he believed only the US Navy had the sophisticated pinger locator system to operate at the depth the Air France aeroplane is believed to be.

Remote Operated Vehicle: These are highly sophisticated yet robust underwater vehicles that can operate at depths up to 6,000m. They have video and powerful lights to illuminate the gloomy deep waters that they operate in. They can also have mechanical arms attached that allow the ROV to pick up bits of debris or attach straps to enable a ship's winch to lift the item to the surface. Phoenix International says it has raised a portion of an Israeli submarine weighing 3,600kg from a depth of 3,000m. The US navy has raised an entire helicopter from a depth of 6,000m.

Mini submarine: France has dispatched a boat with a mini-submarine, the Nautile, aboard. This can operate at a depth of 6,000m, but it was not expected to reach the zone until early next week.

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karatecatman · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject:

from
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8085539.stm

French nuclear sub to join hunt for jet

June 5, 2009
French nuclear submarines have hi-tech surveillance equipment

A French nuclear submarine is being sent to help find an Air France jet which disappeared over the Atlantic.

French defence minister Herve Morin said the hunter-killer submarine had surveillance equipment that could help find the plane's flight data recorders.

A French marine research ship equipped with two non-nuclear mini-submarines is already on its way to the area.

Rescuers hold out more hope that what was reported to be a seat and a large chunk of metal could have come from the plane, reports say.

Three more Brazilian boats and a French ship equipped with small submarines are expected to arrive in the area in the next few days.

French military spokesman Christophe Prazuck said the priority was looking for wreckage from the plane, before turning the search to flight data recorders.

"The clock is ticking on finding debris before they spread out and before they sink or disappear," he said.

(Only main details in this report posted, as the rest is what is known.)
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