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Aseem
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 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: Forgetful Indian raises air fears |
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| BBC wrote: |
Forgetful Indian raises air fears
A passenger cleared airport security in the Indian capital, Delhi, and flew out on a private airline - all on the wrong ticket, it has emerged.
Mr A Srinivas should have been on Air Sahara's 18 February flight to Kochi in southern India but flew a week earlier by mistake, with no questions asked.
Airport security officials said anybody with a valid ticket is allowed inside the terminal building.
Air Sahara did not respond to BBC's queries on the incident.
'Casual'
Mr Srinivas told the BBC it all began with his getting the date wrong.
"I had fixed a meeting in Kochi on 18 February. My tickets were booked accordingly. But somehow I thought I was leaving a week earlier on 11 February."
No one at Delhi airport picked up his error.
"The security at the airport entrance looked at my e-ticket and waved me in. Another security man looked at it too," Mr Srinivas says.
At the "crowded" Sahara Airlines counter, Mr Srinivas presented his ticket for flight number S2 147.
"The airline official started drumming on her keyboard. There seemed to be some problem. She resumed typing again," he recounted.
"She looked up and asked me if I had baggage to check in. When I said no, she asked my seat preference, and I asked for an aisle seat."
Mr Srinivas said that without any other questions asked, the airline gave him a boarding pass to fly to Kochi.
Only when he arrived there three hours later, did he realise he had made a mistake.
"It was a security lapse of the worst kind. No one had noticed that I was carrying a ticket for a later date. It is all about overworked airline officials and casual airport security persons", said Mr Srinivas.
A spokesman for the paramilitary Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) which looks after security at Delhi airport told the BBC "there was no breach of security at the gate at all".
"Anybody who has a valid ticket is allowed inside the terminal building. The date on the ticket is not seen at that point. A passenger might have to enter the building to cancel or reschedule his ticket," Mr B Singh said.
About 12,000 armed CISF staff look after security at 54 of India's 68 civilian airports.
'Rare'
Aviation analyst Kapil Kaul said Mr Srinivas's case appeared to be a "rare" one caused by an absent-minded passenger.
"I guess what might have happened is that the airline found there were seats available on the flight to Kochi on 11 February and gave the passenger a boarding pass presuming that he had advanced his visit," he said.
"But surely they would need to inform the passenger before they did so."
Mr Kaul said there is a lot of pressure on India's airport infrastructure due to burgeoning demand for domestic air travel and inadequate facilities.
Ten domestic airlines in India, including a host of budget carriers, are expected to carry some 33 million passengers this year. |
That is something that needs real attention.
rgds
VT-ASJ
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PlaneObsessed
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: ... |
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Seems like the Airlines fault.
From what I read, CISF did check him for a ticket, which he had. He had a future date on it which I guess people can still enter the airport with if they had to go make any changes to their tix etc.
So the mistake was made by the Airline that just checked in the pax.
Granted that the pax was screened the same way other pax were and other security proceedures were followed the same way by the CISF... I see no reason that there was any real security risk or threat from this... definitely nothing that should "raise fears" interms of pax security.
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Akshay
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Well this can't be termed as a security lapse.. The passenger had a valid ticket. This is more of a lapse on the part of the airline. But I admit that the passenger too was a bit too forgetful 
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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CISF at times is very robotic.
Heading was quite misleading!!! For a second thought it had to do with Indian Airlines!!
BBC's heading anyway!!! Hope it doesn;t revive memories of Shilpa Poppadum in the Celebrity Big Brother series where the use of "that Indian" resulted in a near diplomatic row! |
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avbuff
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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well it is not exactly CISF 's fault ... first of all it was an e-ticket . So there cannot be any sort of validation of the ticket through them ... who knows some terrorist may come with a fake e-ticket and a passport and blow up the airport ... i such things may happen
Probably they should have a screening at entry pt also ... or any other measures u guys can think of? |
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himmat01
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Any body can print a fake e-ticket and enter the airport. CISF has no means of verifying an e ticket or for that matter a paper ticket.
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Nimish
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The whole "security infrastructure" at Indian airports is just so lax! Anyone can walk in with an e-Ticket in anyone elses name, there's no ID check by the CISF staff. The check-in staff are supposed to do an ID check, but quite often ignore that step. The actual security check/hand baggage screening is a complete joke, I've done 2 flights now with a knife & plenty of liquids in my hand baggage. The numerous checks for the "stamps" on the hand baggage is the biggest farce of all - I mean the stamps don't change everyday do they? And even if they do, they surely repeat every few days.. |
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iflytb20
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | I've done 2 flights now with a knife & plenty of liquids in my hand baggage. |
I will have to watch out for you
I asked the local CISF ppl in here about the same stuff. They say liquid is now allowed in hand baggage provided it is in a clear plastic bag 
Now the security stamp...well they are dated...also each shift / company has a unique stamp. Now the shifts are rotated also, so it in not easy for one to say on ABC date XYZ shift will be on duty. |
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karatecatman
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Such incidents/issues will be history in the new "intelligent terminals".  |
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Nimish
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| iflytb20 wrote: |
I will have to watch out for you
I asked the local CISF ppl in here about the same stuff. They say liquid is now allowed in hand baggage provided it is in a clear plastic bag
Now the security stamp...well they are dated...also each shift / company has a unique stamp. Now the shifts are rotated also, so it in not easy for one to say on ABC date XYZ shift will be on duty. |
- yes - you know whom to call when you feel like a few slices of peeled apples
All I can say is that the CISF does not know what they're talking about. They let through any types of liquids, not checking to see if it was in a clear plastic bag or not.
Have you ever seen any of the CISF guys check the stamp for the date? Hold on, is the date even visible? I don't think so.. After all this eTicket had the date on it as well - not really helpful if you're not being alert. |
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the_380
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| karatecatman wrote: | | Such incidents/issues will be history in the new "intelligent terminals". |
Hehe...
But i still fing it surprising how did two people manage to make the same mistake... i mean even the security and at the check-in counters
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aarbee
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Akshay wrote: | | But I admit that the passenger too was a bit too forgetful |
Yeah. That was really funny!.
But of course as other members have noted above, this should not happen in the future intelligent terminals   |
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ssbmat
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: What is the problem? |
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Actually, I wonder if it is the fault of the Air Sahara reservations associate at all. The passenger had a valid ticket. Its just that it is future dated. The Sahara associate assumed that the passenger wanted to advance (pre-pone for us desis ) the reservation to current day, there was a seat available, and he/she gave him the seat!! ? Maybe she forgot to ascertain about the future date, but then all of us also conveniently complain about how dumb or arrogant or rigid the airline staff is..
If anything, the passenger is a mean ungrateful feller... he has his cake, eats it and then complains there was no icing on it!
So very desi.  |
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VABBy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Re: What is the problem? |
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| ssbmat wrote: |
If anything, the passenger is a mean ungrateful feller... he has his cake, eats it and then complains there was no icing on it!
So very desi. |
LOL gud one so true...
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Birendra
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Normal people do not do such things. I feel the traveller was without any bags or something like that and just wanted to proove a point......
Is he against the state or what, was he trying to help in any way  |
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Akshay
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: What is the problem? |
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| ssbmat wrote: |
If anything, the passenger is a mean ungrateful feller... he has his cake, eats it and then complains there was no icing on it!
So very desi. |
Yep. Very true...
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C-GHKR
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | The whole "security infrastructure" at Indian airports is just so lax! Anyone can walk in with an e-Ticket in anyone elses name, there's no ID check by the CISF staff. The check-in staff are supposed to do an ID check, but quite often ignore that step. The actual security check/hand baggage screening is a complete joke, I've done 2 flights now with a knife & plenty of liquids in my hand baggage. The numerous checks for the "stamps" on the hand baggage is the biggest farce of all - I mean the stamps don't change everyday do they? And even if they do, they surely repeat every few days.. |
Don't say India's security is lax, in most of the foreign airports you don't need no ticket or ID to enter the airport. Only at the security check, you would need a boarding pass. So, I guess CISF did a reasonabale job and there is no security risk as per international standards.
I've always been impressed by the security at Indian airports.
Aren't the liquid rules only for US/UK flights only? |
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | I've done 2 flights now with a knife & plenty of liquids in my hand baggage. |
Was this delibrate or you realised it later.If Noticed it could have led to some Embarrasing moments.
regds
MEL
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malQ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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There is nothing extraordinary in walking into an airport on a valid ticket which is either open or booked for a few days ahead, or even early by a few hours or so, and then going to the airline counter, bringing it forward for the current date. If the class of travel permits, then bringing forward your travel date is something that happens many times a day.
Next thing is, why did the pax go to the check-in counter if he did not wish to travel? So, established, he wished to travel. On a ticket which was valid.
That is why they have things like "Stand-bye" desks at airports for people.
Methinks the pax and the news channel in question are both being economical with the truth. Which is very simple - pax made it to the sanitised area only with a valid boarding pass . . . and pax did not leave the airport after entering with an invalid ticket.
So what's the issue, or is BBC getting its own back on the Indian media coverage to the issues facing aviation in UK? |
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stealthpilot
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Personally I don’t see the point of letting only ticketed people inside airports. Heck after 9/11 American airports still let you in. Getting past security check, well that’s a different matter. If my friend/parents whoever are flying out and I want to tag along why make me buy an ‘entrance pass’, just screen everyone before they go in. You should only need a ‘valid ticket’ (boarding pass) to go through security check. I hope the new airports aren’t stuck in the past.
| ssbmat wrote: | If anything, the passenger is a mean ungrateful feller... he has his cake, eats it and then complains there was no icing on it!
So very desi. |
That’s a bit harsh isn’t it 
People will make mistakes and show up on the wrong day etc, it certainly is their fault, but it will happen. Heck- recently a friend of mine flew in to see me and got her times all wrong! These things are unfortunate but they happen.
If he was allowed into the terminal = no big deal (read above hehehehe)
Now the fact that Air Sahara gave him a ticket is embarrassing and a big mess-up. I know there is nothing wrong with changing your ticket to an earlier date- but it’s S2s job to make sure everything is done right. If someone walks up (to a check in counter or stand by desk or whatever) the airline better make sure everything is in order, it is their responsibility. We can call the passenger a moron all we want, but it’s the airlines fault for issuing him an incorrect boarding pass. He checks in with a valid ticket (for a future date) ---- the airline should verify that he wants to change his date; they shouldn’t just issue him a ticket.
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: | | Was this delibrate or you realised it later. If Noticed it could have led to some Embarrasing moments. |
Was travelling with kids and needed to stock up on apples and the ability to peel them on the flight (my kids love apples and will happily settle down for 20-30 minutes). So we had a small "fruit knife" with us, that was un-intentional on the first outbound sector, but when we noticed that no one cared, was intentional on the return sector.
And if noticed, I'm 100% certain it would have not been embarrassing, I would have happily thrown the knife away if it was detected.
What was embarrassing was the shocking state of the hand baggage screening at both BLR and BOM - that's the real shocker. What if I'd been a real criminal? What if I had intentions to harm the flight? I now had a tool at my disposal, courtesy our great CISF staff.
On flights in the rest of the world, they're real quick to pick out even a small scissors or a tiny bottle of moisturizer. In India - a knife and a liter of water - no problems...
| C-GHKR wrote: | Don't say India's security is lax, in most of the foreign airports you don't need no ticket or ID to enter the airport. Only at the security check, you would need a boarding pass. So, I guess CISF did a reasonabale job and there is no security risk as per international standards.
I've always been impressed by the security at Indian airports.
Aren't the liquid rules only for US/UK flights only? |
I'm saying that only based on my personal experience, not based on some 3rd party stuff. Maybe that was a one-off (two-off actually) experience, but I don't think so.
And once again - in all foreign airports, you do need an ID (and it's checked thoroughly) to enter the sterile air-side zone. Quite unlike India, where anyone can take someone else's boarding pass, and walk through the security to the "sterile air-side zone". The ID checks are really amusing in Indian airports - basically they don't exist!
Once again, most of the Indian security "appearance" is kept by having multiple folks check your boarding pass and hand luggage for the "screened" tag. However in reality all that means is that the airport personnel don't have the confidence that everything has been through security screening, which is itself very alarming. |
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flightgearpilot
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Blame the software |
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?? I don't get it. The whole idea of an e-ticket is that the PNR number you as the passenger, provide, should match with the PNR number present in the database, plus the name that is there in the database should match the name on your photo id, (plus, of course, the photo on the id should match your face!)
Now the article is saying that when the operator at the gate enters the PNR number on the computer, the software does not check the date on the PNR record; it simply allows a PNR record of any date to be assigned to a flight on any other date?? (without checking whether the ticket was rescheduled).
If the operator was able to do all these, I'd really haul up the IT company which built this software.. The whole idea in systems automation relies on the assumption that humans are prone to make mistakes, while the software is there to see that the mistakes aren't committed to the system.
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Nimish"] | HAWK21M wrote: | | Was this delibrate or you realised it later. If Noticed it could have led to some Embarrasing moments. |
And if noticed, I'm 100% certain it would have not been embarrassing, I would have happily thrown the knife away if it was detected.
/quote]
You sure CISF would not have further Questioned you.
regds
MEL
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWK21M wrote: |
You sure CISF would not have further Questioned you. |
They did not. That's what counts.
They should have, but they did not, and I'm confident that they will not. That's what's scary.
Sure - I know that it was a risk. But you're missing the whole point, that this should not be happening at all, and to see this on 2 flights back-to-back at 2 of our major airports is reason enough to say the security infrastructure is quite poor. |
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stealthpilot
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Blame the software |
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| Nimish wrote: | | Once again, most of the Indian security "appearance" is kept by having multiple folks check your boarding pass and hand luggage for the "screened" tag. However in reality all that means is that the airport personnel don't have the confidence that everything has been through security screening, which is itself very alarming. |
Absolutely. It’s brainless, what would we expect from AAI  The hand baggage tags = a whole lot of effort to ‘seem’ like extra security when in fact it makes no difference, other than it’s a pain in the behind. And after you get your passport stamped, 12 feet away you have to take it back out to show some flunky the stamp- boy, don’t even get me started on that.
I hope the new airports won’t be this bad. I believe the security will still be handled by the government but I hope the private operators force some changes.
| flightgearpilot wrote: |
Now the article is saying that when the operator at the gate enters the PNR number on the computer, the software does not check the date on the PNR record; it simply allows a PNR record of any date to be assigned to a flight on any other date?? (without checking whether the ticket was rescheduled). |
Yup, I blame the airline, not the passenger.
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HAWK21M
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Blame the software |
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Agree what you are saying Nimish but Im trying to figure out what would be the consequences if Caught with Uncleared Itemsin your Handbag.
regds
MEL
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TKMCE
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: The security is primarily at fault |
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Quite a while I flew out from DEL. But I am familiar with BLR airport procedures.
1, All domestic airlines in BLR have kerbside counters. What this means is that the pax can do postponement/preponement etc WITHOUT ENTERING THE TERMINAL BUILDING. From what I remember the same is the case in DEL and Air Sahara have been around there for more than 10 years.
2 In BLR, not only do the security check the date of the ticket (preponement/postponement cases etc are refused and asked to go to the kerbside counter to do the needful first), security also checks the TIME OF THE FLIGHT. They generally allow passengers in only around two hours before the actual flight . This is due to the heavy congestion which happens in the terminal building in BLR.
So under these circumstances, how can CISF get away saying that just because the passenger had a ticket, he was waved in??
Yes the airline staff is also responsible artly - but NORECS (where a valid reservation does not appear in the airline check in systems or DCS) is quite common. In such cases airlines will accept pax as GO SHOWS and this can be done straightaway if the flight is not full. Only if the flight is full are such pax refused boarding (or asked to wait for the check in to close and then accomodated against NO SHOWS).
Have some mercy on the poor counter staff - the Sahara flight to COK leaves early morning and mornings at DEL airport are hectic for any airline. It is quite understandable that such mistakes happen -esp when it should have been caught out long before the pax reached the check in counter itself. |
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COUGAR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Curious: Whats NORECS?
How can a pax with a valid reservation not show up on the Checkin system?
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TKMCE
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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THis can happen fr a number of reasons. One common reason is that the two systyems may be of diferent vendors. Used to happen with Jet irways a lot earlier when they used KORDA (not sure about spelling) which wasa KLM sysytem for DCS (Departure Control System) while Sabre was their reservation system.
There can be a number of other reasons also. |
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ABN397
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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A few general comments:
There are some airports like Amritsar where the CISF was quite particular about having the kerbside counter put a rubber stamp on your e-ticket before you could enter the airport. The CISF at other "less vulnerable" airports like Jaipur are not so fussy.
Regarding "preponing"-it is a routine practice abroad on routes with high frequency. For instance I once had to fly from Los Angeles to San Jose by one of the major airlines and reached the checkin counter about 1.5 hours before departure. The lady at the checkin saw my tkt and said "there's another one of ours leaving in 30 minutes, should I put you on that?" and made the change with minimum fuss. |
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