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COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

Nimish: Heres what I feel shoudl be the way forward:
No.1 - Set up an ARAI - Airline Regulatory Authority of India on the lines of the TRAI. Trasnfer control of airline route regulations etc to this autonomous body and free this vital sector from the Ministry.

No.2 - Open up the route structure to a n open and transparent bidding process. Ths could also be bought under ARAI. Right now IC is being put under pressure to withdraw from certain international (and domestic) routes, in particular from CCU, to benefit the international aspirations of one particular private carrier. This kind of thing wont happen with the ARAI system in place.
No.3 - Prepare for separate IPO's for IC and AI. Separate IPO's will secure better valuations for the govt and thius more moolah for the Govt of India! Upto 26% each of IC and AI should be released before the IPO in the first phase, to a strategic investor. offhand i can think of Dhoots (Videocon) and ADAG for IC and Radias(Magic) and Tata/SQ for AI.

A further 25% of AI should be released to the public thus effectively taking AI out of Govt control. In case of IC, the govt should retain majority holding and transfer upto 23% of the stake into the open market with a certain percentage from this offered to employees. However the Govt shoudl retain 51% stake and control the boards. The executive cadre of both airlines should be constituted by the strategic partner.

In the second phase, the Govt should dilute it stake in AI with preference being given to the strategic partner, but this would depend on market conditions: if the Govt gets a better price in the open market, it shoudl sell there.

I am storngly opposed to the merger because:

1. The 2 airlines are as different as chalk and cheese. Different management styles, different service levels, different payscales and so on...
2. AI is nowhere what it used to be in JRD's time. As things stand AI is a poorly managed shithole, while IC much more professionally run airline. Merging IC into AI therefore is a stupid decision that would seriously impact the running of IC. More synergy ofoperations, more codeshares, you bet! Merger? No way!

As things stand, NG is scared most of IC because of IC's immense potential to rip apart Jet Airways and its potential for sustained competition. With a newly replensihed fleet, IC is all set to reclaim its position of largest airline in terms of passengers carried per day. New sectors, new stations are all coming online. A merger at this time would only help 9W.
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the_380 · Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject:

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

[quote="COUGAR"]I thikn it is also necessary to reopen the case of the acquisition of T7's. [quote]

I hope that Airbus or your "high-up" contacts at IC are paying you to perpetuate lies, innuendo and gossip even though you're doing a terrible job at convincing anyone.

While Airbus make fine aircraft, the A340-300, even when purportedly preferred over the 777ER/LR, was on its way to becoming the Convair 880 of its era. Perhaps, you and your CPI-M friends should be out investigating why the A343 was chosen in the first place instead of focusing on why a bad decision was finally corrected.

But frankly, anyone who doesn't understand the superiority of the 777LR and 777-300ER over the A345 and the A346 really shouldn't be on an aviation board. Good heavens, even Leahy himself has acknowledged the range and operational issues with the A340 line.

Incidentally, you may also want to pick up JRD's bio and learn that both JRD (even though he wasn't a decision maker at AI at the time) as well as AI itself preferred the 767 over the A310. The 767 had greater range, lower operational costs, and the ability to operate long-range flights from hot and dry airports like Delhi in the summer. But the decision to purchase A310s (a decision that came to bite AI when it tried using the A310s for thin, long-range flights to Europe) came with a political imprimatur, and that is hard to overcome irrespective of the fallacy of the decision.

As for Rahul Gandhi heading the Aviation Ministry because he knows how to pilot an aircraft, even the biggest chamchas of the Congress party probably don't stoop to such levels of sycophancy.

avbuff · Member Joined: 22 Dec 2006 Posts: 5031

aarbee · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD

I don't know in detail about the technical capabilities of T7 and A340, but I was really surprised at the reversal of AI board decision immediately after PP became the MoCA.

I recollect reports of how the AI requirements were overnight changed to suit Boeing.

Aseem · Member Joined: 15 Dec 2006 Posts: 2841 Location: YYZ

If you see, the 777 fever has been slow to catch on. Just see the number airlines who have replaced their A343 with 777.

Regarding the reversal, the same thing can be said when AI chose A343 over previously selected MD-11. With so much activity happening behind the scenes, I think we are not in a position to make a informed judgement. So long as current selection works best for AI, we shouldn't worry about corruption. As if our worrying can change anything. Rolling Eyes

rgds
VT-ASJ
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Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

There seems to be a lot of mud slinging over PP lately. Well none of us truly know the details over the issues brought about by Cougar, so I think its unfair to accuse him of any wrongdoing just yet.

On the issue of T7s replacing 343s I dont have any details, but from the airline point of view I think its a very good and forward thinking decision, esp ordering of 777LRs. I think AI will be the 2nd airline after PIA to receive it.

Also one cannot deny that most advancement in the airline sector has taken place after PP becme MoCA. Including the major hurdles of privatisation of DIAL and MIAL.

The talk of replacing him is totally outrageous. And even if he does favour 9W, its better than favouring AI which has done jack shit for the Indian public in terms of service. Atleast favouring 9W will enable us to have a world class Indian carrier that we can be proud off.

Now only if he would open up the Gulf markets.

Cheers
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Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

Jaysit: do you hold a brief for Boeing or Dinesh Keskar or anyone else?

Jaysit here claims with convicton that the T7 is superior to the A343 and that the A343 is the Convair 880 of the era etc. Any proof to back up those ridiculous claims?

The A340 is currently operated by many major airlines of the world and they seem perfectly happy over it. Any airlines that have switched to the T7 have done so after recvg some pretty good deals for the swap. As Airbus itself has done (SQ).

As for the JRD preferring the 767: Any proof to back up that utterly ridiculous claim? It was a certain canadian on ANET with connections to AI who first spread this canard about AI preferring 767's and having been "forced" to take A310's. There was absolutely no truth in that. This Canadian in question is well known for his ability at "spin doctoring" when he is not mooching off Air India.

The A310 and 767 were considered in parallel, and though the 767-300 had an edge in range, it was the A310's cargo carying abilities that clinched the deal.

If you want to quote an example of political pressure to influence aircraft deals, then the Govt rolling back the 757 deal would be a better argument.

Some of you have argued that the 777LR is a better aircraft in the longer term. On what basis are we making this argument? Any technical specs to back up those arguments? Post it here if you can! Anyway, The whole point is not whether one aircraft is superior to the next. That is beyond the scope of this debate. I am sure the technical commitees in AI loooked into various issues, including acquisition cost, before deciding to go for the A340-300: a decision that was rolled back under ministerial pressure. We need to investigate why. THAT is the whole point.

According to Jay Sitlani, a beedi smuggler is a better candidate for running the Civil Aviation Ministry than a educated young man. Why am i not surprised at Jay Sitlanis poor taste?

Jaysit: I would request you to go easy with your potty mouth 'cos even god doesnt know where that has been! Stick to the argument. And if you have nothing of imprtance to say then dont say it.

Moderators:Please take note.
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Aseem · Member Joined: 15 Dec 2006 Posts: 2841 Location: YYZ

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

Aseem: Please do.

Go back and see who started making direct references to whom in the previous post which was locked. Once that one got locked, he bought his personal animosity on this thread as well.

He keep smaking abusive comments about "sanity", CPM and god knows what else. My responses have always tried to stick to the context of aviation. Jaysit on the other hand is obsessed with Akshay Kumar, Bipasha Basu, Helen, and CPM MP's. Take a look at his posts and mine and decide!

Jaysit has a history of doing that. Notably with TexDravid.
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COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

The past 2 years have seen an upswing in 777 deals with some A340 operators swtiching to the 777. But is that necessarily an indication of a superior aircraft? aircraft deals involve a combination of factors: and that includes the kind of deals that the manufacturer is ready to give.

Can you post some evidence to conclusively show that the 777 is superior to the A340 in the context of AI operations? And i am sorry to say that Wikipedia, an open internet source, is hardly the way to prove that! The thing is you CANNOT prove that. Aircraft suitability depends from airline to airline. An aircraft which is suitable for BA may not be suitable for AI for a variety of reasons! So it is airline specific. And AIhad originally chosen the A340 after a careful technical evaluation. Do you have reasons to doubt their original evaluation?

AGAIN: the point is NOT whether the A340 is superior to the 777 or not. the point is the reasons which prompted Air India to reverse its decision to buy Airbuses and go for the 777. The truth needs to come out. Especially in light of PP's obvious connections with NG and DK. Need proof of that? Well there is a member here on this board who can attest to that!
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COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

Times of india, 13 Oct 2005
:
Most people know that aviation mantri Praful Patel is also a beedi baron. His family runs the Number 27 beedi business, one of the largest in India. What few people know is that Praful has diversified into the other end of the smoking business
:

Education:
PP = bachelor's degree in commerce from the University of Bombay
Jyotiraditya Scindia - MBA from Stanford
Sachin Pilot - MBA from Wharton Business School
Rahul Gandhi - MPhil from Cambridge
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COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

Look I am not saying whether PP is right or wrong. I am saying there is no evidence to conclusively suggest that he was wrong. He, Dinesh Keskar and NG might be chums, but that doesnt automatically make him a wrong doer.

As for your question why do I feel 772LR is a better choice than 340? Well since you want to be airline specific. Here goes: AI would like to do BOM-JFK in specific and India-US in general nonstops? Is that possible with a 343 without payload restrictions? I think not. Is it possible with a 772 LR? We dont know yet BUT the manufacturer claims that it is. So if it turns out impossible surely AI will get some sort of compensation.

And like I said earlier, I would have worried a bit more if an order for 345/6 had been changed, but since 343 was changed to T7s, IMHO, it was a good decision.

You say that you are worried that AI's evaluation was overturned overnight and this is wrong.
Possibly. But in this case like I said we do not have proof and even if he did do so, this decision seems to have benefitted AI than harmed it for the reasons I have mentioned above.

Cheers
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AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

<-- edited by Nimish to delete member's confidential information>

Anyway not that i could care less! It is my duty to expose corruption and that is something that I shall continue to do! Regardless of those in denial on this board or elsewhere!
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COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

The 772LR which the mfr CLAIMS cando BOM-JFK non-stop was NOT part of the evaluation just like the A345 wasnt! That part came later, MUCH later.

And there is no reason to say that Airbus would not have offered AI a mix of A343, A345 to meet their MCLR requirements comprehensively with A346's thrown in to replace their ageing 744's. But this was not part of the original spec.

Again: the jury is out on which is the better aircraft. I think this is a decision best left to the airline. The problem as i see it, is that a minister who is close to a private airline and to the Marketing chief of an aircraft Mfr is "influencing" airlines under his control to change their decisions! How ethical is that? There is a conflict of interest here which is the main case against PP. Whether he personally gained financially or not is yet to be seen, and please note that I havent publicly commented on that aspect. But there is undoubtedly a conflict of interest!

Whatever PP has done in the MoCA was part of the UPA's programme announced much earlier. Privatisation of Airport ifrastructure, more regional connectivity, opening up of international routes etc etc was all part of the UPA programme. This would have happened regardless of PP.

Infact becayse of PP's close relationship with 9W, other private airlines are loosing out, notably Sahara. And now KF as well. And this is leading to a skewed development of Civil Aviation that threatens to negate the benefits of liberalisation of the Aviation industry. Because of PP tendency to behave like the "minister for Jet Airways", we are seeing a new monopoly being created by Jet. Did we end IC'smonopoly only to end up with another monopoly owned and operated by a well-connected UK national (Naresh Goyal)?

This is why PP must go.
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Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

"gay gay gay gay re.. gay re saiba!"

=)) Oh! that is priceless! I am gonna use that line sometime!

neways Jay: let me take you back to the previous thread on AI livery where you without provocation started hurling abuses aimed squalrely at me. Did u thihk i wouldnt respond? Neways I suggest we take our little spat offline. We can spat over PM's and there is no need to involve other members here.
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COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

Nimish: Yaar i do so much mehnat and you remove it in one shot! Neways I understand what you say about Members identity not being revealed. But you must concede that that was some marvellous detective work!

Does that mean i cant post all the dirt concerning the "Minister for Jet Airways" dug out by our NGO network here on this board??
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Nimish · Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:04 am Post subject:

VABBy · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL