Airliners-India.com

the_380

As the title says...what difference will it actually make...practically speaking keep the media articles out of here...only your opinions ... do you think the new merged airline will become something great as SQ or CX or EK? Or will it put an end to all the negative points in the people's minds about both the carriers? Or what else?
_________________
http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld
A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Very Happy

Aiel · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 927 Location: Bangalore

Looking at the current planning of both airlines( new and completely liveries for both, different aircraft purchases- 320s, 737NGs, 330s, 777s etc, conflicting flight routes -IC flying to Europe and so on), this is going to take a looong looong time and will be quite painful.

Found this link:
After the merger, the government wants to break it into five subsidiary companies and a holding company. Under the holding company, the five subsidiaries would be Air India (international operation), Indian Airlines and Alliance Air (domestic operation), Air India Express (low cost international operation) and a cargo company.

Link Here
_________________
My Flickr photos

My JP.net account

Nimish · Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject:

The fact that the question needs to be asked, indicates the need to merge these 2 and tighten the screws.

karatecatman · Guest

380,

Merger is going to be "merger".
Its a holding company. There are going to be five airlines all dropping the moolah into one common pool.

tsk911 · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 223 Location: DEL

One thing for sure IC will get a free upgrade to a 3 Star Airline from a 2 Star Airline.
_________________
Nalini... The Princess of the Sky... You are a star which will continue to illuminate your own A.net-India forever...

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

I think this sort of merger will create more problems than it solves.

The reason from Sir Richard Branson's autobiography:

Virgin group is not a large conglomerate but smaller separate and independant companies so that if one goes down or does badly it does not affect the others.

In this case our GOI is doing just the reverse, taking independant companies and merging them. So if one goes down it will hurt big time.

I wonder what the plethora of planners and thinkers do in the National Capital Territory.

Cheers
_________________
Geniuses are always misunderstood in their lifetimes.

VABBy · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL

I knw merger is completely going to kill the IC brand. Bt then i fail to understand being two govt owned entities why on earth do they have to compete with each other. Incase they want to create synergies and eradicate competetion among each other lets jst simply divide the international market where IC and AI can fly and correspondingly they can codeshare on each others flights too...

If the complete merger was on the mind then why so much of taxpayers money has been pumped into the rebranding of the indian and same goes for air india if in future the air india brand is going to be killed
_________________
Expeditors- You'd be surprised how far we will go for you www.expeditors.com

the_380 · Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject:

AFAIK the only benefit might be about the FFPs. Frequent flyers enjoy with it. By the tsk911 cool comment and pretty true ... sorry no offences means to AI

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

Ai/IC already run a common FFP: Its called "Flying Returns".

SO i wonder what the benefit will be. AI, which is deep in losses will get a profitable arm in the form of IC: but IC ont he other hand is going to get basically nothing.

Right now Jet Airways is being squeezed on 2 fronts: by AI and IC internally. IC's merger into AI, makes it more "manageable", and thats what this is about. NG is a past master at managing th epolitical situation to his advantage and thats what he is doing now. He has sucessfully used his connections with PP to push through the merger in a way that only Jet will benefit. FYI: PP's wife is on the Jet board.
_________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live

--

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

Of course, one wonders why India even needs a public sector airline(s) any more.

All the usual arguments that India needs AI/IC to bring back desis trapped in some Middle Eastern hellhole once violence erupts there, or to fly Indian troops to some African hellhole on a peacekeeping mission, or to serve Nagaland and Ladakh are nonsensical, as such arrangements can be dictated by statute and/or regulations as its done in the United States and other countries.

As for the GOI, it should keep a 744 to fly VVVVVIPs on their junkets across the world. Far cheaper than to maintain the useless systems of political patronage that are IC and AI.

One can hope that with a modern fleet of 777s and 787s, AI will be an attractive option for a buyout eventually.

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

If I could have my way then I would sell of AI to a private business house: Tata, Reliance and Dhoots of Videocon are all interested.

The Govt coold retain IC but divest upto 49%: 26% to a strategic partner, 23% to employees and the rest owned by the Govt.
_________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live

--

aarbee · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD

Nimish · Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject:

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

aarbee · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD

Jaysit · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 4346

Nimish · Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:07 am Post subject:

Offtopic - Guys - please help keep this board uncluttered by quoting only the relevant part of the post!

Nimish · Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:09 am Post subject:

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

Guys,

I have also heard that Mrs PP is on the 9W board. While I cannot prove it, my info comes from some very highly ranked sources within IC.

Cheers
_________________
Geniuses are always misunderstood in their lifetimes.

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

There was a parliamentary report submitted by a JPC which clearly spoke of the link between PP's "favoring" Jet Airways and his wifes connection following which his wife "resigned".

Incidentally the man who lobbied with Sonia Gandhi for PP to become the Civil Av Minister is one Mr.Javed Akhtar, otherwise Bollywoods song writer, and not too incidentally NG's "good friend" and member on the 9W board.

One of the dudes who raised this issue publicly was Mr.Nilotpal Basu, CPM MP.

There was a large article in Financial Express on PP's links with Jet during the time of the Air Sahara merger mess.
_________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live

--

the_380 · Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject:

Yes i can also say what COUGAR is saying is true. PP's wife happened to be present for a board meet also
_________________
http://www.myspace.com/avsatsworld
A Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox Audio Producer!!! Very Happy

Prajay · Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject:

the_380 · Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject:

Nimish · Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject:

the_380 · Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject:

aarbee · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD

Some pretty heavy shots being fired out here ... Shocked

Nimish · Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:53 am Post subject:

aarbee · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 328 Location: WAS/AMD

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

PP's is a businessman first and a politician afterwards: his beedi empire is HUGE and he has investments in a number of other businesses.

Not that there is anything wrong with that! However if there is a conflict of interest situation then that must be addressed.
_________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live

--

karatecatman · Guest

The affidavit filed by PP for Lok Sabha says his assets are worth Rs.2100 crores.

VABBy · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 823 Location: DEL

Gr88 topics guys lemme add a bit of a fuel to the fire too .

PP no doubt is one of the most dynamic Civil Aviation Ministers we ever had bt then maybe its the media or maybe its actually the truth that dude is often too soft towards 9W. Nw why is he that way is something which he shud rather reply in the public ..

I wud rather nt sell off IC or AI to any of the private investors because being a Govt owned airline got its own benifits . U get sweeter deals in regards to financing and leasing of aircrafts. Jst count the no of planes which are going to join the fleet this is something which no pvt player on the indian soil has dared to order.

Besides currently its a win-win situation for we as pax. Tommorrow if a couple of full service airlines wrap up it will be we as pax who wud be suffering due supply constraint.
_________________
Expeditors- You'd be surprised how far we will go for you www.expeditors.com

the_380 · Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject:

HAWK21M · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am Post subject:

To Airline Employees too its a serious thought.One would not want this Low Ticket price & High Salary War to shut down any Airline,as then there would be a lot of mvmt of Unemployed staff to the remaining Airlines creating a bad situation as not all would be employed & most would be taken in at much less than their deserved salaries which would be bad trend.
regds
MEL
_________________
Think of the Brighter side !!!

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

It would be wrong to make plans just based on all the positive upbeat news about the Civil Aviation Industry. Lets also take into account a scenario where airlines go belly up one after another. What happens when pvt airlines start folding up one after another?

Infact this has happened twice before: once immediately after independence when there was a boom in airtravel fuelled by an easy availability of pilots and Dakota DC-3's. Did it last? No! and the chaos convinced the govt of theneed to retain state control. I am one of those who believes that Govt control of the airline, and indeed the Indian industry as a whole was essential atleast in the first 2 decades. The script went wrong however when state control went beyond the necessary period and continued past the '70's.

The second time airlines went bust was in the '90's. At its peak, East West had 28 Boeing 737's and over 8+ Fokker F27's! Who could have thought THEY would fold up? But they did! Fortunately this time around, the situation did not demand a complete nationalisation of air-services.

This can happen yet again. Infact I am certain that in another 2 years, only 3 FSC's and 3 LCC's will survive with a couple of regional players on the side. The situation is too fluid to predict anything! Infact if 9W doesnt manage to stem the cash-flow problems, it might end up the East West way as well! What the presence of a state-owned IC does is to act as a check on the private players. It also serves as a backup option.

There is another side to this which wont make sense to the NRI crowd, but is a fact of life here. IC provides a valuable service by linking parts of the country where no private airline would venture. When the Gujarat quake happened, 9W, otherwise the biggest player in the Gujarat market, curtailed or cancelled many of its flights, while IC stepped in with not only more scheduled services but also many ad-hoc and relief flights. IC is the Govt's player int he market and for the next 20 years atleast, we need this influence here.

Which is why I have been opposing the AI/IC merger: because it means merging a profitable and professional carrier into a unprofitable, unprofessional airline like AI. If AI goes belly up tomorrow, and i have no doubt it will, it will take IC along with it. IC has been improving its service standards to an extent that in some areas it is even better than AI or even the pvt carriers. Now with the merger, IC will be goin the AI way.
_________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live

--

AKLDELNonstop · Member Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: Auckland

Good Post Cougar
_________________
Geniuses are always misunderstood in their lifetimes.

HAWK21M · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject:

[quote="COUGAR"].

The second time airlines went bust was in the '90's. At its peak, East West had 28 Boeing 737's and over 8+ Fokker F27's! .
[quote]

Roy.....East west had just 8 Boeing B732s [VT-EWA,EWB,EWC,EWD,EWF,EWH,EWI,EWJ] & 3 F27s[VT-EWE,EWG,EWK].

regds
MEL
_________________
Think of the Brighter side !!!

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

MEL: How many did they lease-in? And did they not acquire 733's and 734's later on? I think their total fleet did reach 28.

I remember seeing 28 737 entries on the Aircraft Register.
_________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live

--

the_380 · Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject:

COUGAR · Member Joined: 01 Jan 2007 Posts: 986 Location: Bangalore

What complicates matters for the state owned carriers AI/IC is the fact that ministers come very cheap these days: especially in the current era of coalition politics where every 2-bit regional party wants to have 10 ministers in the Union Cabinet.

Every minister is under the influsence of various lobbyists. and this is further complicated if the minister has been a industrialist himself as is the case with PP.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that PP has been dynamic in a positive way: His dynamism has been more to help the private carriers and in particular Jet Airways, than to help the state owned carriers.

The chargesheet against PP includes:
1. The Air India board ordered A340-300. As soon as PP became minister the order swung the other way!
2. The relentless pressure on IC to pull out of routes in favor of 9W. Most recent was PAT-DEL morning flight. 9W said they would operate only after IC pulled out. Another is MAA-BLR-PNQ and now CCU-BKK.
3. The way the merger is being pushed through in a manner that DIRECTLY benefits Jet Airways and disavantages IC. The latest is that the intl slots held by IC would be thrown open for bidding by pvt carriers! Who benefits?
4. PP has gone out of his way to make announcements and policy decisions that have benefitted 9W in particular. Remember how PP pushed through clearances for Jet on the eve of their IPO? Remember how PP made public announcements when 9W's stock fell after the S2 mess?

This has been discussed in parliament as well and PP has been extremely lucky that the Congress govt needs his party the NCP at this point especially till the UP elections. Because whatever we are discussing here has been discussed at the very highest levels before and even Mr.Pawar has been informed of the same. There are strong signals that PP will be replaced with someone less controversial.

And I for one will be very happy to see him go. His actions, ever since he became minister have always been tinged with partiality against IC in particular. He has been publicly called the Minister for Jet Airways in public!

There is no smoke without fire. His friendly relations with Naresh Goyal, Javed Akhtar and a senior official in Boeing is not just speculation but a well acknowledged fact. Which is why his continuation as Civil Aviation Minister is wrong. We dont want to give the opposition an issue before the election now do we?

I think its only a matter of time before PP is shunted out and someone like Sachin Pilot or Rahul Gandhi is made the new Civil Aviation Minister.
_________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live

--