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AI and IC merger talk
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Aseem
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: AI and IC merger talk Reply with quote

lets begin with this hot topic..
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PlaneObsessed
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: AI and IC merger talk Reply with quote

Aseem wrote:
lets begin with this hot topic..


i wonder what they will name the airline once its merged... guessing its gong to be Air India
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: AI and IC merger talk Reply with quote

PlaneObsessed wrote:

i wonder what they will name the airline once its merged... guessing its gong to be Air India


I would hope so - that name still has significant intl traction - definitely much more than Indian. That being said, I wonder what's the benefit of all of re-branding activity that IC is working on these days.
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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the Name Air-India has a Famous History & should def be retained.

regds
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAWK21M wrote:
I believe the Name Air-India has a Famous History & should def be retained.


And so does Indian Airlines.
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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tribute to the Great man.....JRD.

Theres a Difference.
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MEL
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AKLDELNonstop
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I am not mistaken wont the airlines retain their separate identities post merger with a separate management and separate employees. I think this information was posted in the thread in the old site. IMO I dont really like the separate company structure with a separate managment I just dont see the point.

Also I believe if that were to be the case then privatisation would be more difficult.

But I think in the short to medium term we are going to see them as separate companies because neither AI nor IC seem to be doing anything that would even remotely suggest anything on the lines of uniting, in fact IC is aggressively pushign ahead with its new livery and branding.

Cheers
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Aiel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<i><b>
AI-Indian merger may cost Rs 300 cr </b>

The proposed mega merger of Air India and Indian would turn into a costly affair — with an estimated bill of Rs 300 crore — if the government does not provide tax breaks for the big fat wedding in the air. The merged entity would face an additional tax liability of Rs 256 crore in terms of unabsorbed depreciation and losses not carried forward.</i>

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/828761.cms
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the_380
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: AI and IC merger talk Reply with quote

PlaneObsessed wrote:
Aseem wrote:
lets begin with this hot topic..


i wonder what they will name the airline once its merged... guessing its gong to be Air India


No way bro... we cannot expect something like that to happen at all... AI and IC might be retaining their original identity...
IC for total domestic flying and AI for totaly intl flying.
Or maybe the other way round? Razz Evil or Very Mad
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: AI and IC merger talk Reply with quote

the_380 wrote:
No way bro... we cannot expect something like that to happen at all... AI and IC might be retaining their original identity...
IC for total domestic flying and AI for totaly intl flying.
Or maybe the other way round? Razz Evil or Very Mad


Hopefully it'll be the more logical/elegant solution of AI+IC becoming "Air India" for all "full-service" flights (both intl and dom).

And AIX and CD merging to become "Air India Express" for all LCC/ regional/ feeder flights - with the LCC model (no/limited service etc.).

Of course with the GoI and the babus with their vested interests - Logic is not their strong point. Sad Rolling Eyes
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the_380
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKLDELNonstop wrote:
If I am not mistaken wont the airlines retain their separate identities post merger with a separate management and separate employees. I think this information was posted in the thread in the old site. IMO I dont really like the separate company structure with a separate managment I just dont see the point.


Cheers


And by the way as far as employees are concerned they will be merged in the following manner:
Current AI Mx staff to Boeing MRO
Current IC Mx staff to Airbus MRO
Remaining AI and IC pilots might be merged to some pilots venture or very strong possibilities of them retaining their original identity because their unions are very strong and in the past we have had many incidents where pilots have apparently pissed off their respective airline management
Rest employees might be merged to the new airline
Thats how i believe it will go on Arrow
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karatecatman
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject: Flight International article Reply with quote

An article in Flight International (latest issue) says that the merger is more on the lines of synergy, with the most obvious benefit being in terms of financial strength.
It also says one of the most touchy issues will be branding as Air India has an old and strong brand name while its the same with Indian. IA has just undergone an image change and that factor weighs in strongly.
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karatecatman
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: The Maharaja’s new clothes Reply with quote

www.uniindia.com
The Maharaja’s new clothes
New Delhi, Dec. 19 (UNI)
Amid preparations for a grand wedding with Indian in a couple of months, Air-India is facing a top-level management change.
The tenure of V Thulasidas, CMD of the national carrier, is coming to an end this week, and the names of a number of hopefuls are doing the rounds. While the current buzz is that the IAS officer might get an extension if only to expedite the merger, there is also speculation that he might get to don the civil aviation secretary’s mantle after the current incumbent gives it up next month.

While the powers-that-be are tight-lipped, Thulasidas’ well-wishers have their fingers crossed. Apart from sending pulse rates racing in Air-India and Indian, the suspense is also likely to have an impact on the recently formed Federation of Indian Airlines (FAI), which is also headed by the officer in question. Interestingly, fellow bureaucrats are watching the unfolding situation with bated breath, obviously to keep an eye out for new career possibilities.
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the_380
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:36 am    Post subject: Avijeet's AI-IC merger Reply with quote

My way of the two airlines' merger:

First i would like everyone who would doubt my ways to ask themselves a question and reply honestly:
If the two airlines get merged totally emerging as one airline lets nickkname it as "Air Indian Airlines" or AIA for short... do you really think things can change completely? Forget the time that it 'might' take


Ok my way of their merger:
    (1)First of all merge and get good money from share markets
    (2) Second... let the two airlines retain their identity
    (3) Let them carry out their operations as it is without the govt or the new company taking any undesirable step to the employees resulting in agitation
    (4) Merge that staff which comes face to face with the passenegers. This includes cabin crew, ticketing staff, customer services executives etc.- those who are directly linked to the passenger. Let the fact about the merged airline only be "displayed"
    (5) Merge FFP programs completely.
    (6) If AI finalises to join *A then compulsory even IC must join *A


Will note the future points as soon as i can recollect them
regards
Avijeet
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AKLDELNonstop
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

380,

Some of the points you make like merging FFP programs make sense but your point about partially merging the employees is a recipe for disaster and confusion.

Also I belive there are two things that will give you good money in an IPO, firstly, a good product and secondly good potential.

Do we have a good product. Well no. Does the product have potential. Yes, but a lot of work will have to be done to realise that potential.

So an IPO just now may not be the cash cow that many people seem to think, IMO a lot of improvements post merger will have to be made before they have a realistic chance of making really good money from an IPO.

Cheers
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the_380
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKLDELNonstop wrote:
380,

Some of the points you make like merging FFP programs make sense but your point about partially merging the employees is a recipe for disaster and confusion.

Also I belive there are two things that will give you good money in an IPO, firstly, a good product and secondly good potential.

Do we have a good product. Well no. Does the product have potential. Yes, but a lot of work will have to be done to realise that potential.

So an IPO just now may not be the cash cow that many people seem to think, IMO a lot of improvements post merger will have to be made before they have a realistic chance of making really good money from an IPO.

Cheers


We need a good potential for getting good money from the share market even i know that but tell me how much of reality do you see in the govt controlling the airlines?
They are not able to manage the airlines at all and they want to merge them and create a hell outta it thats the hard fact.

And seriously do you think things can change after the merger? Will AI's on time performence change to 90%+ or will they get a 5-star rating? This is possible without the merger too. You don't need to merge them for this. You need to merge them to stop their competition among themselves, increase profit and make one airline easy to manage and mainten.

Also merging won't solve any problems, instead it will increase the problems that the airlines will have.
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AKLDELNonstop
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_380 wrote:


We need a good potential for getting good money from the share market even i know that but tell me how much of reality do you see in the govt controlling the airlines?
They are not able to manage the airlines at all and they want to merge them and create a hell outta it thats the hard fact.

And seriously do you think things can change after the merger? Will AI's on time performence change to 90%+ or will they get a 5-star rating? This is possible without the merger too. You don't need to merge them for this. You need to merge them to stop their competition among themselves, increase profit and make one airline easy to manage and mainten.

Also merging won't solve any problems, instead it will increase the problems that the airlines will have.


No no just merging wont solve the problems, and I aint saying that our govt can solve the problems, all I am saying is that unless they solve or reduce the problems, they will not get as much as they should from the IPO.

Cheers
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karatecatman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Staff of Indian airlines to protest over delay in pay revisi Reply with quote

Almost as it to prove the doomsayers right!! Typical PSU attitude --- holding the management responsible for the consequences.

www.uniindia.com
Staff of Indian airlines to protest over delay in pay revision
New Delhi, Dec 20 (UNI)
Agitated over the ‘‘delay’’ in implementation of their demands, employees of state-owned carrier Indian today decided to launch a series of agitational programmes across the country from tomorrow to seek higher wages and assured career progression.
‘‘On wage revision and career progression, everything has been negotiated and settled, but the management is unnecessarily causing delay,’’ the Air Corporation Employees Union (ACEU) said in a circular to its regional affiliates.
The employees would launch lunch-hour demonstrations, wear black badges and carry out relay hunger strikes in all regions, including Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai, till January 1, 2007, when further action programme would be chalked out.
Asseerting that the responsibility of any inconvenience to the passengers would lie with the Indian management, ACEU General Secretary Arun Kumar alleged that the management had ‘‘offered to pay us ad hoc relief but reversed their stand thereafter’’.
He said wage revision has been pending since January 1997, and the management was showing a ‘‘non-serious attitude towards settling our demands’’.
Kumar asked all members across the country to follow the directive and carry out the agitation as planned.
He also expressed reservations over the merger with Air India. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you have a stupid reason for grounding 14 A320s.Its a wrong time.
regds
MEL
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the_380
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAWK21M wrote:
When you have a stupid reason for grounding 14 A320s.Its a wrong time.
regds
MEL

The timing is good from the demand point of view. Besides this strike is by commercial and others except pilots and engg and cabin crews
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HAWK21M
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Flt ops & Engineering not Involved.
regds
MEL
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject: AI IA merger talk Reply with quote

Once when they merge will AI retain its current livery.It will look great on their new aircrafts mainly on 777-300ER and 787.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: AI IA merger talk Reply with quote

G-BYGB wrote:
Once when they merge will AI retain its current livery.It will look great on their new aircrafts mainly on 777-300ER and 787.

IMHO both SHOULD retain their respective liveries. Its that name and trust which has evolved over years and years of time
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: AI IA merger talk Reply with quote

G-BYGB wrote:
Once when they merge will AI retain its current livery.It will look great on their new aircrafts mainly on 777-300ER and 787.


Most likely. I dont think AI is going to change its livery anytime soon. Nor should it.

Indian has just changed its livery. It will be interesting to see whathappens. Me thinks both will retain and fly separately in complementary routes, while the upper management will probably be merged.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe AI livery only suits the B747 series.The rest dont look quite good.
regds
MEL
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AKLDELNonstop
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAWK21M wrote:
I believe AI livery only suits the B747 series.The rest dont look quite good.
regds
MEL


Well I feel that the metallic bottom suits the 747s but it doesnt suit the 777. Maybe they should paint the bottom red or something. But they should definitely not change the scheme around the windows. Thats unique and great. Maybe they could paint the tail and the rear part of the fuselage with some of the amazing Incredible India pics.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAWK21M wrote:
I believe AI livery only suits the B747 series.The rest dont look quite good.
regds
MEL

Different people different opinions. no opinion can ever be wrong
IMO AI livery suits wide bodies like the 747,777 and also 787. Would have also looked good in the A330/A340/A380.
AI livery may not have matched to a 737... good anyways its in a different livery
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on the tail width.
Currently the red slash/arrow of Air India looks fantastic on the 747 and the A310.
On the 777, looks quite mutilated. Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karatecatman wrote:
Depends on the tail width.
Currently the red slash/arrow of Air India looks fantastic on the 747 and the A310.
On the 777, looks quite mutilated. Crying or Very sad


You mean the centaur. I dont think thats going to disappear anytime soon. Thats one of AIs iconic symbols.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not the Centaur, which of course is on the engine cowlings.
Am talking abt the tail. The red slash/arrow point on which is the lettering Air India (English) and Ayaaar Indhiah (Hindi)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh That. Sorry dint get you earlier. yeah they can get rid of tht.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject: AI-IA MERGER --- meet in Jan 2007 Reply with quote

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=439250
AI-IA MERGER
MUMBAI, DEC 22 (PTI)
An Empowered Group of Ministers (EGoM) will meet in January to consider a roadmap to the proposed merger of Air India and Indian to create one of the largest airlines in the world.

"The committee of Secretaries have already submitted their recommendations.. The eGoM would meet in January to discuss those recommendations," Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel told reporters here today.

The eGoM headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee would discuss issues, including the biggest challenge of manpower re-organising, he said.
The government had given its green signal earlier this year for the merger of Air India and Indian.

The initial public offer of the Airlines, he said, would be considered after the merger.

About the proposed airport in Navi Mumbai, Patel said, the Civil Aviation Ministry had asked the state government to give a detail presentation regarding the land acquisition and related issues.

"We have asked the Chief Minister and his team to give detail reports related to land and other issues. The cabinet will discuss these issues and later we invite bids for the airport," Patel said.

With an estimated project cost of Rs 4000 crore, the proposed greenfield airport at Navi Mumbai would come up by 2012, and have a capacity to handle nearly 55 million passengers annually.

© Copyright PTI. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of any PTI content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without their prior written consent.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKLDELNonstop wrote:
Oh That. Sorry dint get you earlier. yeah they can get rid of tht.

Cheers


AKL,
Get rid of the slash? There will be no livery left.
Right below is the 777 tail.
Copyright: Plane spotters




Last edited by karatecatman on Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:48 am; edited 4 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 747 tail
Copyright: Planespotters



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the A310.
The difference is clear, though it depends on the width and angle of the tail.

Copyright: Richard Allen/Planespotters




Last edited by karatecatman on Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah KCM I understood what you were talking about. And yeah they could consider replacing it with something else. Not that ugly Sun but the AIX scheme might suit AI as well. I think its a pretty good idea to showcase Indian heritage on the aircraft.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKLDELNonstop wrote:
Yeah KCM I understood what you were talking about. And yeah they could consider replacing it with something else. Not that ugly Sun but the AIX scheme might suit AI as well. I think its a pretty good idea to showcase Indian heritage on the aircraft.

Cheers

well maybe they could have the current livery on the 747s and a newer livery on the 777s
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

well maybe they could have the current livery on the 747s and a newer livery on the 777s



Air India is setting up a new design team called "Project 787". It will look at: a new livery, inflight furnishings, galley equipment, IFE and amenities. The team is to have a tenure of about 2 months and forward its recommendations to Air India. It will also take part in discussions with OEMS and vendors.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KCM,

Do you have any link or source for the above info. Would love to know more

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my ideal world, the perfect livery for AI would be a mix of the AIX tails (though the number of tail designs will have to be expanded greatly) and the palace windows.

The palace windows, i feel are unique and give a special character to the aircraft.
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