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HAL Proposing Upgradation Of IAF's Avro HS-748 Transport

 
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shivendrashukla
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: HAL Proposing Upgradation Of IAF's Avro HS-748 Transport Reply with quote

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The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] recently issued a 'Request For Information' [RFI] for a proposal to replace the Gas Turbine-powered turbo-prop engines of the Indian Air Force's [IAF] Hawker Siddeley's Avro HS 748 medium-lift transport aircraft. It seeks to replace the currently used British Rolls-Royce Dart 533-2 & 536-2T engines, which HAL license-built, with a modern solution that churns out more power, demonstrates better fuel efficiency1, and also weighs less & has dimensions no bigger than the ones presently used. To get an idea of how old the engines & the aircraft it powers are, the engine has already found its way into HAL's Heritage Museum, its manufacturer in India, even as it powers this IAF aircraft, as of today.










Full Story :http://www.aame.in/2013/08/hal-proposing-upgradation-of-iaf-avro.html
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shukla Sir, thanks for sharing this with us. I am actually quite astonished at HAL's proposal, given that there haven't been takers for the industry venture for a HAL-748 replacement. Cost-wise, and given the IAF/BSF/...other operators' extensive experience with the type, it may not be too bad an idea, but HAL's track record in some projects hasn't been terrific. It may be a blessing in disguise for the HAL, to acquire experience with a contemporary engine. I would be extremely interested to know your personal point of view about 1. the feasibility of using an upgraded 748, 2. a possible turnaround regarding that amazing Italian STOL aircraft - was that not a frontrunner as the 748 replacement? 3. which contemporary engine do you think would be the best - the Pratt & Whitney Canada's PW126?
Thanks, Sumantra.
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sabya99
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR-Dart a remarkable engine powered so many aircrafts including Vickers Viscount, F-27, Avro 787, Breguet Aize at last showing signs of age. It is also remarkable that Avro airframe is still under useable condition even after so many years of use. If engine and landing gears are replaced may be these aircrafts will have years of useful life. A DC-3 history will be repeated!
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shivendrashukla
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumantra wrote:
I would be extremely interested to know your personal point of view about 1. the feasibility of using an upgraded 748, 2. a possible turnaround regarding that amazing Italian STOL aircraft - was that not a frontrunner as the 748 replacement? 3. which contemporary engine do you think would be the best - the Pratt & Whitney Canada's PW126?
Thanks, Sumantra.


Sir, Since it would be my personal view, here it is:
1. I am not sure how they have calculated an avg of 350hr/year. Even if that was true, the airframe has already been in service for a min of 30 years. True that 80,000hr may not have been met, but only hours is not the criteria. Wear and tear and servicing is also one. So I am not in favour of HS748 continuing more as it will only add to misery of IAF. May be HAL would buy back these HS748, refurbish and sell them to some civil operator.

2. I assume you are referring to C-27J? Right now, that proposal has been cleared by Govt. I dunno how our govt works but lets hope for the best.

3. PW126 is a commercial engine. Although it may be fuel efficient, it is still not MILSTD certified. Although its variant PW127 is. A better option would be RR AE2100 engines used on C-130J and C-27J. Advantage of this engine would be since IAF is already operating C-130J and in future, might also operate C-27J, commonality would be maintained.

Again, these are my personal views. May or may not be correct.
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivendrashukla wrote:
Sir, Since it would be my personal view, here it is
Thanks a lot, Sir - that was helpful. The first point astonished me too, since the cycles are no indication of an airframe's lifetime, as you point out. Any repair, and the team will put plates and rivet it `like mad'.
Thanks for the C-27J name - I somehow only had G.222 in my mind, I was unable to remember this, and was too lazy to search on the Internet. I do not get this. This is a medium lift plane with an amazing STOL capability. Will this `more than replace' the 748, or does the IAF want another smaller plane to complement the C-27J?
Thanks for the heads-up on the engines - I was too naive to assume a civil variant, that too, not inter-op'able with the Hercules, for instance. Very stupid of me. Frankly, I was astonished at the HAL's over-confidence in this venture, given the lack of response from the industry, and their jumping in with something less-than-concrete, which will take perhaps years in the making.

Dr. Ganguly: I personally doubt if the DC-3 story will be repeated here. The DC-3 outlived many of its `replacements', and the IAF has put the 748 to some amazing uses, which were never imagined by Hawker-Siddley, but the IAF needs a better aircraft. The fact that they have used this plane to this date - is a fitting tribute to the resourcefulness of the IAF. The RR Darts were amazing till newer variants came up, starting about the late 1970s.
Cheers, Sumantra.
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivendrashukla wrote:
...it is still not MILSTD certified
On a lighter note, all engines of Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian-built transport aircraft are MILSTD certified. They are of military standard, more so, with regard to their fuel consumption Razz
Cheers, Sumantra.
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shivendrashukla
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumantra wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up on the engines - I was too naive to assume a civil variant, that too, not inter-op'able with the Hercules, for instance. Very stupid of me.


Sir I do not agree with this view point of yours Very Happy

sumantra wrote:

On a lighter note, all engines of Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian-built transport aircraft are MILSTD certified. They are of military standard, more so, with regard to their fuel consumption


True Sir. All Russian build equipment are extremely rugged and take on a lot of beating. They never were very good at finesse but extremely good at durable and rugged build. Fuel consumption is not their forte either. But then, in military aviation, fuel is not top priority.

Cheers
Shivendra
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sabya99
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about Allison T56 engine used in Herc. C130. It has been widely exported and probably also made by RR. But it needs US authorization.
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shivendrashukla
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabya99 wrote:
How about Allison T56 engine used in Herc. C130. It has been widely exported and probably also made by RR. But it needs US authorization.


RR AE2100D3 version is the engine that is being used by C-130J. These engines were manufactured by Allison as T406 before being absorbed by RR.

These are not critical component and may not require US authorisation.

cheers
Shivendra
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