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Freedom of exprssion, cliché but can't do without it.

 
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stealthpilot
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:00 am    Post subject: Freedom of exprssion, cliché but can't do without it. Reply with quote

Mods, I am posting this here because it's RELEVANT.
If it 'hurts sentiments' I don't care. It shouldn't, common sense would prove that. Instead of people crying about silly things they can learn to worry about things that matter.

I have taken the names off quotes just to keep the focus on what was said, not who said what.

I thought about posting it in the Kingfisher Airlines NEWS -- Part 6 thread, because that is where it all started. Please read
http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=12675&start=160 as a background to my rant over here.


wrote:
Jeh - your reference to Diwali as a "Mangled, noisy mess of a festival" was uncalled for IMHO as it did not add any value at all to the discussion at hand. The focus on this forum is aviation and let's keep it at that.

I agree with what you said but ... and this is to all our members + mods...
Let's not act like every post is 100% on topic. Also let's not act like the issue here was a member going off topic. The fact is plain to see- the issue was someone dared to say something about a religious festival which got certain people worked up about. Off topic? Who are we kidding. The topic was KF, and KF paying salaries by diwali. Whats off topic Shocked

We (members) go off topic all the time and no one bats an eyelid. The only reason the moderators took a stance with that thread is they seem to be scared of 'religion' and comments aimed at that (and sometimes rightfully so ...)

Inflammatory and derogatory remarks = yes by all means delete them. Hate posts and racist innuendos = heck ban the poster.
But this?
Are we following those idiotic (2?) Mumbai policeman who arrested 2 poor girls over a seemingly harmless FB post. Let's stop with the knee jerk reactions, excuses and over sensitive skin.

wrote:
And I don't understand this sentimental fascination with 'Diwali', as if paying salaries in time for this mangled, noisy mess of a festival somehow absolves the airline of past sins. You'd think any employee would much rather have a stable monthly income instead of lump sum face-saving payments just short of emotionally charged major festivals.

What the poster said was in no way inflammatory, nor was it racist or inciting in nature.
He and anyone else is free to dislike diwali or any other festival. Heck my dog hates diwali. It's too loud and I feel bad for him. Is that a hit below the belt and am I being disrespectful and are my thoughts uncalled for?

wrote:
India may be secular, but that does not give you the right to insult the biggest festival in the country.

Really? If you consider that an insulting comment you've been living a very sheltered life.

wrote:
For whatever reason if you do not celebrate Diwali don't but do not dare to belittle Diwali for a great majority of us.

can it Rolling Eyes .... and stop being so sensitive.

Is this is the reaction we members/citizens expect? Or worse pander too?
If anything our moderators need to take a stronger stance with the chaps who replied so negatively rather than the original poster.


What next, wheres the line?
I think it's silly to act like the issue was an off topic comment. We're not children here we all know what the issue was. Was the original offending comment 100% on topic, no it wasn't.
If this forum is allowed to get to a stage where everyone who's 'sentiments are hurt' is catered for then every disagreement or opinion on god-religion-spirituality-favourite colour etc is uncalled for and off limits

All this hoo haahh over one tiny comment on how one chap doesn't like diwali???

Why do people feel the need to heap symbolism on statements than never asked for it.
Rolling Eyes

Rant over.
Comments? Thoughts? How do we avoid this?
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nikhil - you've hit the nail on the head a couple of times in the post above.

That being said, we're here in a multi-cultural society, and while I personally enjoy and participate in jokes or jibes on my community/religion/size/color etc. - the next person might not. From my (personal) perspective, when it becomes clear that everyone is joining in the joke, go for it. When it's clear that folks don't like the joke/jibe, stop it, it's probably not funny anymore.

Is this a viable addendum to your argument?
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Aseem
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

generally we have a fair sense about what will down well with the group. but one has to be extra careful on the net.

VT-ASJ
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stealthpilot
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the late reply ....

Nimish wrote:
From my (personal) perspective, when it becomes clear that everyone is joining in the joke, go for it. When it's clear that folks don't like the joke/jibe, stop it, it's probably not funny anymore.?

I agree, but there still has to be a rational limit. Just because someone gets upset (or doesn't get a joke) doesn't mean everything stops. The question must be asked WHY and to what extent.
Quite frankly there was no 'jibe' against any community/religion that warranted the reaction from members and mods.

Aseem wrote:
generally we have a fair sense about what will down well with the group. but one has to be extra careful on the net.

Generally yes, but more needs to be done. Knee jerk reactions over comments which were not intended to target a religion/community need not be taken as such. We need to be able to differentiate between comments which constitute a credible threat and those which simply cause offence. If they were merely offensive so what? Really ... so what? The comments were not racist or targeting a group ...



I don't know if anyone read about the new (proposed?) laws in the UK relating to offensive online posts? We have a lot to learn in India, and I hope our antiquated laws are amended (I'm referring to the Mumbai incident).
We are not the only ones who live in a multicultural society so the excuse of "we are different than them" doesn't hold.

Here are some bits/quotes i picked out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20777002
http://oursocialtimes.com/index.php/2012/12/prosecutors-clarify-uk-law-on-offensive-social-media-posts/

The Director of Public Prosecutions said people should face a trial only if their comments on Twitter, Facebook or elsewhere go beyond being offensive. He said the guidance combats threats and internet trolls without having a "chilling effect" on free speech.
However, online posts that are merely "grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false" would face a much tougher test before the individual could be charged under laws designed to prevent malicious communications.
Mr Starmer said: "These interim guidelines are intended to strike the right balance between freedom of expression and the need to uphold the criminal law.
"The interim guidelines thus protect the individual from threats or targeted harassment while protecting the expression of unpopular or unfashionable opinion about serious or trivial matters, or banter or humour, even if distasteful to some and painful to those subjected to it."

However, posts that are offensive will face a rigorous assessment and will only be pursued if it is deemed to be in the public interest. They will only proceed with these cases when they are deemed more than:
1) Offensive, shocking or disturbing.
2) Satirical, iconoclastic or rude.
3) The expression of unpopular or unfashionable opinion about serious or trivial matters, or banter or humour, even if distasteful to some or painful to those subjected to it.


Every one of us needs to be a little less pig headed, and the mods need to take a stand.
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TKMCE
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the Moderator who moved my thread on "Cinnamon and Dalchini" from Civil Aviation to Non Aviation....My dear friend... why are you forgetting the good old basics... dont jump into conclusions by just reading the title....Read the entire thread and you will find it deals with an important piece of reasearch of the topic of Spice Jet naming of the Boeing 737 and Q400 fleet.

Sumantra and HAWK21M ... My good friends.... Dont you agree a grave injustice has been done to me by this shunting out of such a serious civil aviaition topic Smile Please help me put up my case against this over zealous moderator super man who ever was it !! Smile And the good old fashioned courtsey of informing the thread starter about this shift also no longer seem to be be in the SOPs of our Moderator friend!!

Aseem bhai... I PROTEST Very Happy

I thought some of your Anet India babudom colleagues had reformed their ways... they apparently still have a lot to improve.... So looks like I must make another retreat soon if this continues...
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKMCE wrote:
And the good old fashioned courtsey of informing the thread starter about this shift also no longer seem to be be in the SOPs of our Moderator friend!!

Aseem bhai... I PROTEST Very Happy

Apologies on behalf of the mods on not notifying the thread starter about the shift - that's basic courtesy and we remain committed to that.

TKMCE wrote:
I thought some of your Anet India babudom colleagues had reformed their ways... they apparently still have a lot to improve....


Babudom - wow - strong word - makes us sound like the DGCA/AI folks Smile. Anyway I acknowledge that there's always scope for improvement, and specifically in this case it should have been handled better.
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rajeev and Nimish, I guess I should do what The Wife has always asked me to. Cut down on my obsession with food, and gluttony Sad Else my last 36 trip reports, and the many more to come, may find their way into the Non-aviation section Smile
Cheers, Sumantra.
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Nimish
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumantra wrote:
Rajeev and Nimish, I guess I should do what The Wife has always asked me to. Cut down on my obsession with food, and gluttony Sad Else my last 36 trip reports, and the many more to come, may find their way into the Non-aviation section Smile
Cheers, Sumantra.


I'd rather say - enjoy the indulgence, and now there's a Food thread specifically for deep fried guilty pleasures Smile
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TKMCE
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Sumantara, even I love writing about food. Initially I thought of writing about how my pre ordered sandwich (even the pre - ordering was enforced - that is another story) aboard the "Dalchini" transformed itself to a Cup Noodle but I was again worried about whether our Babus in Anet India would shunt it out instead to Aviaiton Hobbies... Laughing !!! Too unpredictable our babus here are and no sense of humour either for some of them Crying or Very sad

To be fair the crew who made the noodles did a far better job of it than an earlier experience aboard one of the aircraft of their counterparts of Mumbai Dyeing fame where my order (that time, of my own free will and choice) ended up as luke warm noodle soup instead!!! Aboard the "Dalchini" and its bretheren, I understand noodles are quite popular since it was the only hot item available and so sees some demand (no ovens on Q 400). But then to appreciate and discuss these finer nuances our babujis also should see things in a lighter vein Laughing
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Spiderguy252
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKMCE wrote:
To the Moderator who moved my thread on "Cinnamon and Dalchini" from Civil Aviation to Non Aviation....My dear friend... why are you forgetting the good old basics... dont jump into conclusions by just reading the title....Read the entire thread and you will find it deals with an important piece of reasearch of the topic of Spice Jet naming of the Boeing 737 and Q400 fleet.

Sumantra and HAWK21M ... My good friends.... Dont you agree a grave injustice has been done to me by this shunting out of such a serious civil aviaition topic Smile Please help me put up my case against this over zealous moderator super man who ever was it !! Smile And the good old fashioned courtsey of informing the thread starter about this shift also no longer seem to be be in the SOPs of our Moderator friend!!


I know an apology has been tendered by Nimish above (as well as by me on the thread concerned), but here's another to match this repeated post: Apologies on the thread shift to the adjacent Non-Av forum, it has been reverted back to Civil-Av with minimal damage done in the meantime.

Go ahead and shoot a message to either one of us (there are 4 in total) on the moderation team if you have any other concerns of our moderation around here - which is apparent from your scattered post above, and we'll discuss it among ourselves and get back to you as soon as we can. And no, you needn't request allies to "help you put up your case", it'd be best if you proceed with the operation individually. It won't minimize your opinion's intensity if you're the only party involved, if that's what you're worried about. Cheers.

TKMCE wrote:
I thought some of your Anet India babudom colleagues had reformed their ways... they apparently still have a lot to improve.... So looks like I must make another retreat soon if this continues...


Come again, what? Hibernating for several months on end because of a random relocated thread on a relatively anonymous phpBB aviation web forum are we?

Like I said, shoot us a message if you're genuinely in distress - it can't be much more than a complaint about one or two threads moved back and forth, and we'll bring out a solution which has consensus among the majority on here (likely all if we're lucky). Obviously you will be rendered happy in the process as well.

And yes, do so alone - call for help not, retreat not. Smile
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sumantra
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKMCE wrote:
Hey Sumantara, even I love writing about food.

Sorry, Rajeev - I replied to this on the food thread, discussion about aviation food will possibly be more apt there.
Cheers, Sumantra.
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